Hillclimbs- The last remaining SCCA Time Trial

[czrider]

After experiencing the latest in SEDIV offerings I have realized something. SCCA Track Trials as Time Trials no longer exist in SEDIV SCCA. We now have digressed back into the Road Race format that the SOLO I program evolved from decades ago. All that is missing is corner passing. Put that in and go ahead and issue entrants Road Race Competition Licenses and the ranks of SCCA Road Racers and Road Race entries will gain back some of the losses the competing sanctioning bodies and economy have eroded. Those of you that don't have caged race prepared vehicles will need to upgrade or stick to SOLO. If you have a desire to dust off your classic and get some laps in, plan on renting your own track.

[tedebayer]

Brian, certainly respect your opinion and view point as you have a lengthy record of active involvement and service to the SEDIV Time Trial Program. That said, I have to respectfully disagree. You have attended one Track Trial event this year and it is the one at Barber. The problems some of our drivers had at Barber were not an issue at TGPR nor were they an issue at Road Atlanta... so this was NOT the norm and your statements were not indicative of other events or the SEDIV Time Trial Program.

I received statements from a number of our drivers that ran at Barber that there were concerns about the number of cars on track in groups (over 28+ in one I believe by my count at track side) and that many of the road racers who used the Track Trial event as a "test n tune" did not pass on point by and some passed on turns and were not called in by corner workers. As always, there is more to the story.

We are doing our best to grow the SEDIV Time Trial program. This requires we bring in more drivers with competitive offerings and we keep events at track venues here in the Southeast. Two regions have been unable to justify financially events at two of our SE venues and we are not currently holding events at those facilities. On the other hand, are entries are up 70% from last year and we are issuing many new license and log books. We are seeing growth in participation but we need still need new track events sites to keep it interesting.

Barber was a big effort and some regions climbed out on the tree limb financially to make it happen. This was a first in many years and I salute their efforts to get us back there! That said, first time at a track (when we have been away for a while) brings issues. Timing/Scoring... manning turns... and making the numbers work. If it can't be financially sound, then regions owe their members to stop running events there as it is not fiscally responsible. In an effort to make the numbers work, they suggested to Road racers to use the TT for a test n tune. This would build up numbers, increase money to help the event succeed financially... all good sound thinking. We cannot run a Time Trial with 20-30 cars at Barber and break even.

In my opinion... based on what I was told and what I saw.. I think the breakdowns occurred in A. Not properly addressing with the road racers how we run... and B. Not enforcing failures of the road racers to operate by our TT rules. It is actually common that workers KNOW how to work a road race but are not as familiar with TT rules. I may be incorrect but that is my opinion.

So, what do we do? We let the Time Trial Committee discuss and work out issues. Let us get a better understanding of how we can improve for next time and continue to offer good quality events for the money. THAT is why we have a Time Trial Committee with representatives... so they can work for our regions to address issues... and we don't have a "trial by forum" with opinions from some that do not clearly have all the details. I would point out that there have been many issues with first time events at new sites in road race and in Time Trial and even in Solo. When there is a problem, we do, we analyze, we learn and we improve for next time. We do NOT throw out the program and tell drivers to go road racing or go drive solo. If you have issues with any event, please address them with our Time Trial Committee representative we elected so the topic can be addressed properly by the people involved in managing and administrating the series... not by posting general statements on the forum where it can be misinterpreted as the opinion of many and may perhaps not be correct. The CCR Time Trial Representative is Shane Findland and he can be reached at : [e-mail] He has and will continue to work with the SEDIV TT Committee to represent our region on issues and needs of our region.

I am proud of the progress our SEDIV Time Trial program and there are many people working hard in many regions to make this work and grow and succeed. I also greatly appreciate Craig Farr and others who took some great leaps of faith and then worked their tails off to get us back in to one of the most beautiful race tracks in the US. I hope the numbers work and we can do it again for next year. We are also hopeful we can re-open CMP and Roebling Road next year for Track Trial events. Thanks for all participants and workers that made last weekend happen. Thanks! See you at TGPR for our season ender. Many championships still up for grabs pending results from this event!

Ted Theodore
SEDIV Time Trial Administrator

[blairunderwood]

I, like Bryan do not like the format in play for track trials. We came from the old Solo 1 era of about 3 to 5 cars on track for 3 to 5 laps spaced so as not to race. That being said, for the current entry fees you need more track time, and in the old days, for 2 days, you might get say 25 laps total, so now you might get that in 2 sessions, not 2 days. In this economy, you have to give Bang for the Buck, and I think that the SEDIV time trial board has done the best it can with the situation. I personally am not interested in wearing my car out avoiding moving pylons, as is the case of most track events, and have chosen to concentrate on my first love of hill climbing, but that is MY CHOICE! People interested in progressing through the program, to one day go wheel to wheel racing, have NEVER had a better choice to do so than in the current format. We all choose our "GAME" and play with the rules of that game. If we do not like the game, we can support and try to make it the best game it can be, or play another game. The game is how it is now! Saying it is not a game, because it is different to you, does not wash. I do not know what the problems were at Barber, but I do know that we have a capable and concerned Time Trial Board, that WILL LOOK INTO IT! "If you have never made a mistake, you have never done anything!" Hats off to all the people who work all the events, including Bryan, for making "MY GAME" fun this year!!!! Maybe you guys can try and bring the Track Trial program up to the hill climb level with time, just do not give up, or downgrade the program as a whole.

[czrider]

I would be nice to hear what is discussed in the TTC meetings and to have communication of such from our representative as previously requested. No information has been presented nor input requested other than from Craig. Maybe some "minutes" would shed some light on the thoughts of the committee. Yes, details are lacking. Why is that?

[Steve Eckerich]

There have been some trade offs going to the new TT formats that allow more cars on track. It is very different from the days of 3 car pods. Reality is that TT can no longer afford to pay for most tracks. While there is a core group and new drivers every day, you still do not get close to the revenue needed to rent a track like Barber. Blending the test day cars in with TT was the only viable option they had. I can see how it would be difficult for the road race drivers to remember not to pass in corners, and most likely ignored the rule when running together. Unfortunately you need those cars and their entry fees to pay the bills so it will have to be worked out. Size of the group and those factors led us to keep the Mini at home last weekend. Not saying it was bad, just not the conditions we wanted for the first time that car went on track. We will most likely run next year if the race is held.

That said, I have heard some good things about the event and hope it continues with the support of Alabama and TVR.

[fv90]

I appreciate the concerns - with each track in SEDIV there poses different problems to solve - Barber has 17 corner stations to fill and I don't want one person at each station - so you must solve the having enough people to conduct the event. A lot of those workers were new being paired with RR experienced workers and their knowledge. We stuck our necks out quite a bit to conduct this event and could have effectively killed/zeroed our bank account in this one event. As a FV driver I had only one problem on Saturday in my session with a pack of F600's who went both sides going around me at the end of a passing zone (which was interesting since I can't point on both sides) I did see a black flag in several sessions pointed at several drivers in sessions afterwards and the passing in several sessions settled down - there are drivers who respect our hobby and those who don't I see at every event and no region is immune to jerks.
Barber is damn expensive, you do realize Atl/Al lost 20K last year? The test day and Saturday meal as well as weather played into a big loss. This year was different since there was NO practice day this year and no big Saturday shin dig - know what we are looking at a big profit because we took the risk - we have things to work on but many many many many entrants and officals liked this tryout - will it discourage the person who doesn't look in the mirror or want to worry about someone behind them, probably so but until that group decides to produce their own series that can pay the bills and make everyone happy (hint: you'll never make everyone happy)we still have TGPR on the schedule - the cheap rent on the place and the limit of the number of cars does favor those who want to not use their mirrors as much. I just hope the entries improve cause a few years ago the event lost money because Time Trial entrants did not support and produce the bottom line.
Mark Rothermel SEDIV TT Safety and a very proud TVR R.E.

[lancer360]

I was really disappointed to not have a test day, but I know Barber is a crazy expensive track to rent. I was on the fence on doing the time trials for the extra practice, but in reality there was no way I was going to get the car prepped between sessions with an hour or less between some of the sessions with no crew. I apologize to Mark for one of our F600 drivers passing on the wrong side of you. We had some specific testing we were trying to get through as a group with some of the F600's and one of the driver's made a calculated, but improper decision to pass you incorrectly. The number of cars in the TTB group combined with the huge time disparity between FV/SRF and the F600's made it extremely difficult to get in even one clean lap let alone several to give us the data we were looking for. In the end though I really enjoyed the weekend other than the extreme heat and hope you host the event next year.

[fv90]

Thank you Chris for your opinion - just like we will take all opinions and come up with a better event. I am used to the passing so I am not upset but we will need to get the combo in the mindset of the RR. Sunday was a breeze compared to Saturday and the RR were not quite so many. My actual last session in TTB was me and George B in F600 until he blew up - it was nice by myself but I felt bad for the workers having to watch me for the final session with no real "action"

[lancer360]

Luckily that last turn incident with George was not a blown motor. George spun and didn't get the clutch in in time which killed the starter motor. The fire looks like it was a fuel issue in the side pod. Hadn't heard what the final diagnosis is on it. It could have been much worse. George was quite upset with the corner worker. George jumped out of the car and the corner worker ran to the armco with the fire extinguisher and yelled to George that he was on fire. Of course George knew that and the worker wouldn't come over the armco with the fire bottle. George had to run over, get the bottle, run back, and put out his own fire. Not the kind of reaction you want from the corner workers when ever second counts. Hopefully everyone learns and next time will be even better.

[C4Shane]

Sept 4, 2013 6:59:29 GMT -5 czrider said:

I would be nice to hear what is discussed in the TTC meetings and to have communication of such from our representative as previously requested. No information has been presented nor input requested other than from Craig. Maybe some "minutes" would shed some light on the thoughts of the committee. Yes, details are lacking. Why is that?

Brian, the reason no details have been provided, by me (as the CCR TT rep) is that we have not had any recent discussions. Craig has provided the latest meeting minutes for the TTAC discussions, midyear review, and the overall news for SEDIV TT. So, there really has been nothing else for me to add. Regarding Barber, both Ted and Craig have responded with a summary of the event and have addressed those questions/concerns in a factual manner. I was not at the event due to a family event, so I do not have any personal comments to add to what they have already provided. When information is available that is not included in meeting minutes, or by our SEDIV TT officers, you can be sure I will pass that along. If you note in an adjoining thread, Ted discusses that there will be some changes in the rules structure for next year, but this is not cast in stone and still under development, so I am not in a position to say anything more than what he has offered in that thread. I do think most folks will appreciate the changes, but some may not. Please recognize that I cannot, nor will, provide information on proposals, drafts, or other TT emerging actions that have not been released for publication. Once released, I will provide these immediately to the members.

In the meantime, if you have any questions or comments that you (or anyone else) would like to ask of the SEDIV TT committee, feel free to send them to me at [e-mail]
- I have responded to many regarding car prep, event schedules, equipment, rules, etc. Where appropriate I have had phone calls with a few folks and even met one-on-one when it would be helpful. In fact, you and I had a call early in the season to discuss events and the need to bring a flat track event back to the eastern side of SEDIV. That was passed along to the TT committee and discussed in detail. If you look at the 2014 proposed schedule, in the notes provided by Craig, you will see Roebling Road is back on the schedule. Now, we just all need to show up and support that event as the last time we had less than 20 cars.

Again - feel free to contact me at [e-mail] and I will be happy to take your input/comments and pass them along, or answer any questions that I can directly.

Thank you for your comments and feedback.

[farrout]

I am sorry that you did not see reports from me about the TTAC this year. The reality is that we spent every scheduled meeting since April, a few unscheduled meetings, and numerous emails working on the new Time Trials Rules. Given that we were still creating, uncreating, writing, erasing, etc, on documents that we could not publish left us nothing factual to report. Having said that, this was the most productive TTAC year that I have ever seen.

The new TTR have been sent to the BoD for approval. I can publish them once we have approval. See the other thread on this forum for a more detailed description of them.