Course Safety

[W. Dean Furr]

Last NTI event of 2006: Formula Ford hits the curb. Car damage.

Last 2006 event at Knights: Miata hits the curb. Car damage.

Statesville: Spitfire driver runs out of talent in the middle of the sweeper and misses bank by a small margin. No damage except to ego.

First 2007 event at Knights: Toyota hits curb. Rabbit snap-spins in the highest speed section of the course, less than 20 feet from a curb. Two drivers hit the timing light, and several more have semi-spins at the finish.

I see a pattern here. I've seen more cars against hard objects in four events than I saw in the first ten years I autocrossed. Does anyone care to speculate on causes? Even better, does someone care to propose a solution?

On another post, I remember seeing that CCR doesn't send a car around the course to see if it is safe before the first run. True? If so, when did we quit?

[lagunamiata]

Some of the problems were because of the course design. I believe that the last Knights event problem was a combination of an unfamiliar car with old brakes and course.
The finish at the last few events have not been good, I personally thought they should have been changed.

The safety of the course falls to the chief for that day. The other stewards can modify the course, but if we don't get a chance to see the course (most of us do other jobs) then we can't offer our comments.

I don't remember the pre-run, but I've only put in two full seasons...

[chris1866]

I agree that the finish wasn't extremely as safe as it could have been this weekend. Obviously, the safest ones are the ones that end in a straight line but this doesn't always work out with the design and flow of the course.

However, it has been my experience that more often than not, these minor "accidents" occur when the driver is trying to be a hero when he or she begins to lose control and their attempts to "save it" end badly.
Also, everyone knows this, but there are inherent risks to motorsport, even autoxing, and by participating in these events drivers are fully aware of and have accepted these risks.

Just my .02

[nitroc5]

Its not the courses its the drivers...period.

The accidents you mentioned were either:

A) Poor driving techniques

B) Drivers that cannot handle what there car is capable of

Thats it.

I'm a pretty good driver...but not great by any standards...I know this so I don't do stupid things when I'm out on the course. If I can keep my 3,200lb car on the track when it will very easily spin the tires at part throttle in either second or third gear on race slicks then everyone else should definately be able to keep their cars on the course JMHO.

I personally think Rob is a great corse designer and I always enjoy driving the courses that he sets up.

[lagunamiata]

I'm not saying that the courses were bad, just parts should have been re-thought in the interest of keeping them farther away from hard objects.

Rob does a great job. This weekends course was great, finally something other than crop circles at Knights!

[vonirkinshtine]

+1 to what nitroc said. High performance driving is all about exploiting the limits. We, as drivers, push those limits in order to go faster than we did the last time. Eventually we all run out of tallent. We all will reach a place where we pitch into a turn and quickly realize, "oh man, I think this was a bad idea." Of course some of us have the ability and tallnt to bring ourselfs back to reality when things get hairy, the rest of us end up facing the wrong way just before the crossover (I mean no offence to anyone who looped it this past weekend).

"Incidents" are all a part of going fast. We should learn from them and let them make us better drivers.

P.S. and if you don't want to hit the light pole, just be a little more careful around it, lol.

[lancer360]

Granted I have only been to a few autocross events, but one look at all the curbs and I was nervous. I mentioned it several times on Saturday to various people I met. I loved the course, but I have always understood autocross to be an event where you can run at 10/10ths with very low risk to you or your car when you have that 11/10ths moment. I saw a white miata clip the curb just after the start on Saturday, a yellow CRX jump the curb near the start, the green CRX jump the curb on Sunday and I think there were others I didn't see. There were also numerous close calls at the finish line including a 180 degree spin stopping just short of the curbs. It appears that most of the cars walked away with only damaged ego's. I could understand maybe one incident, but a minimum of three curbings plus a handfull of close calls .... there has to be other options.

[justinhomi]

In my opinion, at an autocross, it shouldn't even be possible for the worst of drivers to hit anything. The course should be designed so that any "iffy" areas should be as far away from curbs, lightpoles, timing equipment, as possible. Someone should take a safety inspection of each course to make sure that this is the case.

Of the recent accidents, many of them were by nationally competitive drivers... so it can't be said that it was poor driving ability that caused this to happen. Even if it was a lack of driving ability, that shouldn't matter.

[markt]

If the course meets the printed safety requirements regarding distance from solid objects(curbs are NOT considered solid objects by the rules, I and my suspension would respectfully disagree) there should not be a problem. However, consideration should be given to how one arrives at that distance. That is, if the longest straight on the course leads to a pivot cone 25' from a curb maybe that's not the best thing to have. If we are going to allow Novices to participate the course should reflect that as well. They do not yet know where 9/10ths is let alone 11/10th and that threshold can come at you mighty fast and Novices can't be expected to do the right thing, they are after all, Novices.

We all want to run the most wide open National Level course we can but, Knights and our other venues are not National Level lots. I admit, the new design at Knights was a welcome change and quite fun but maybe not for Novices. Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the Green CRX on the curb running "Pro" class?

Maybe we need to remind people that there is no shame in driving as slow as you want.

[pistonwheels]

I appreciate the comments here and thanks to Dean for raising it (and I know Dean's knowledge of these events).

The fact that it was raised and that you have all provided information means that this will be discussed at the next Board meeting and I will be exepcting to find out why it occurred and what we will do to impove.

Regardless of any driver's experience or the vehicle they are driving, it seems that we are not doing as good a job as we should in making our course designs meet the standards that are defined by the Solo II rules/guides.

Regards,
Martin B.
CCR Regional Executive.

[Tim Walsh]

That white miata on saturday was mine, though I wasn't driving it. While I can't comment on that part of the TnT course, the little jog before entering the first crossover scared me, both the miata's I drove that day didn't really want to settle down before heading into it. Maybe it was me, but I tried to take it that part really carefully because of the proximity of the curbs and speed that I was carrying through it.

[stealthgtfour]

i wanted to mention that it was a very long day due to the timing issues and i for one was quite fatigued by the time group 4 ran. on my last run i made a mistake at the finish resulting in a dnf. i think i might have startled the workers in that area also and i apoligize. the point is that driver fatigue contributes to mistakes on course and drivers shoud be cautioned and encouraged to stay hydrated and be as fresh and alert as possible at all times so this can be avoided.

i think the course design overall was good and a nice departure from the norm at knights.
that lot doesnt lend itself to many course options due to all the curbing.
just my 2 cents
thanks

[C4Shane]

I don't disagree with the need to improve course safety. But, as I saw a number of these incidents (both this weekend and in the past) it often comes down to someone "trying to save" the run or at least not stop on course. We often mention it in the safety meeting - But remember - if you get into trouble - BOTH FEET IN!!!

[pistonwheels]

wdfurr said:

I see a pattern here. I've seen more cars against hard objects in four events than I saw in the first ten years I autocrossed. Does anyone care to speculate on causes? Even better, does someone care to propose a solution?

I will be proposing solutions. I am very concerned by this.

There will be action on this. Not everyone may like those actions.

CCR will work to continue its repuatation of great autocrosses with high standards.

I have confidence that our Autox chair shares my views in this and we've already discussed aspects of this, based on information learned at the National Convention.

Martin B.
CCR R.E.

[grey ghost]

I will ramble on here for a moment. I asked the Safety stewards (Bill, Joey, and John).what they though of the course. we made a couple of changes. my thought in retrospect is that Knights is Not a usable lot anymore with respect to course safety issues verses making a course satisfying to most competitors. we could tighten it up and not let most modern cars out of first ( taller 1st gears) but the sport has evolved from the gymkhana's format of going at a slower pace. one issue I see is that yes, a couple of great drives have hit the curb. I think that the Street tire classes when they breakaway tend to take longer to recover their working slip angles with this in mind we need to work the courses away from a hazard more than what is required by the rules.

Spins and slides are not avoidable when you are in a competition. we can not control a driver when he is graded by his time against the clock, only coaching and time will temper a aggressive driver.

If you make a course to confining and with out challenges you will lose members as it will not be fun or challenging for the competitors.

if you find a course that after you walk it dangerous you should bring it to the course designer, and or safety steward. you should be able to have good suggestions on which you can help the club make the course safe.

course designers have to think of many things ,safety and minimums from obstacles. flow, gate width, slalom gate widths, run off, overlap, optical challenges, less is better. start and finish. van placement. worker stations. lining course. just to name a few.

finishes are hard for all designers you have to way safety, challenging, course length, runoff, and the RED MIST.

getting back on track THE SAFEST THING WE CAN DO IS GET BETTER LOTS.

I have been told that Caro-winds is under new ownership, can we get some one to approach them.

thanks Rob.

[lagunamiata]

Dave is working with an old friend on Carowinds... we'll see what happens.

Only one event this year is at Knights. Continental is pretty well contained and I don't remember any problems at the 24.
NTI is, well, NTI. Two events there, islands, light poles... what fun!

One problem with the safety stewards is that many are doing other jobs at the start of the event. I know that several of us only walked the course one time on Sunday. I didn't get a feel of how it would flow until my second run... I talked with PDawg during the first group, but don't know if we can change a course after runs have started.

BRW, I liked the courses you did this weekend. The only part I didn't feel good about was the finish on Sunday.

[markt]

wdfurr said:

Last NTI event of 2006: Formula Ford hits the curb. Car damage.

Last 2006 event at Knights: Miata hits the curb. Car damage.

Statesville: Spitfire driver runs out of talent in the middle of the sweeper and misses bank by a small margin. No damage except to ego.

First 2007 event at Knights: Toyota hits curb. Rabbit snap-spins in the highest speed section of the course, less than 20 feet from a curb. Two drivers hit the timing light, and several more have semi-spins at the finish.

I see a pattern here. I've seen more cars against hard objects in four events than I saw in the first ten years I autocrossed. Does anyone care to speculate on causes? Even better, does someone care to propose a solution?

On another post, I remember seeing that CCR doesn't send a car around the course to see if it is safe before the first run. True? If so, when did we quit?

To each incident:
NTI: I wasn't at NTI, no comment.
Knights: The Miata on the curb was done by one of the most experienced, talented Autocrossers around. No other incidents occured.
Statesville: "No damage except to ego"
Knights '07: 1. I'm not aware of any car sustaining damage due to curb issues, if so, there should be an Incident report on file. 2. A spin on the fastest part of the course that results in no damage is simply a spin. 3. CCR's timing lights are designed to withstand being punted by a car. The only difference between hitting a cone and the timing light is, I believe, only the difference between a +1 penalty and a dnf. 4. I did "both feet in" after the finished and coned and I saw another Miata spin across the finish line. No damage, just a spin.

Actual incidents with reports: at most 3 and one of those was by "the boss". I'm not sure there is a crisis.

I think the safety steward should drive the course before signing off. Some might object due to the rules about running the course prior to your timed runs. Too bad, safety has to take precedence in this case. I would expect the SS to be more inclined to run the course looking for safety issues rather than getting a jump on his/her competition.

[autoxdad]

I will make it a point at the future autocrosses to walk the course with the course designer, the event safety steward and one more safety steward,. After this walk if over, the event safety steward will drive the course. If anyone objects to him driving the course because of competition, they can take the issue up with me. It is a safety issue!! This procedure is in effect now! But we also need people to use their heads, the whole problem is not with the courses. Thanks Dave

[racerjon1]

NTI was a new car to the driver (and not an easy car to drive) and it was on cold tires (making it near impossible to drive for a new driver)

The two incidents this weekend with CRXs were both experienced drivers, one with a national championship jacket hanging in his closet. The driver on the test day got overzealous on cold tires, and didn't laugh it off of course, but was fully aware that his decision to go as hard as he could ended up causing the issue.

THe 2nd incident was one I expected, and Even took it easy there because I wasn't trusting of my car. The car that his was more sorted than mine, and the driver had a lot of trust.

I think with any "big incidents" there is a buildup of causes that equal an effect. The poster above who made mention of the Street tires and losing control could be right, but IMO street tires give more warning than r-comps when it comes to letting go. However, in a slalom (as the incident was) you get to the limits of a street tire quicker. A few years ago there was a bulitin in the SSS newsletter that talked about rethinking course design in reguards to the STi and Evo and their ability to get to 60-70mph in a hurry. We might need to think about distances cars slide on street tires and curbs as well.

I will go on record saying that I did like the course, but it did scare me in a couple places concerning speeds and distance to the curb. Like Rob said though.. it's a trade off between a better/more fun course and risk levels.

For the timing lights, yes they are designed to be hit, but potential damage and event delays should be considered and risk to the lights should be minimized. I think backing up the finish lights 25-30 feet, and perhaps removing the last slalom cone coming to the finish would have helped, and IMHO, would not have taken away much from the course. (A hairy finish is fun of course, a hairy finish heading at curbs is not.)

Jon K

[markt]

"Potential damage and event delays should be considered and risk to the lights should be minimized."

No question, my point was that it is not a safety issue.

[prancingdawg]

wdfurr said:

Last NTI event of 2006: Formula Ford hits the curb. Car damage.

Last 2006 event at Knights: Miata hits the curb. Car damage.

Statesville: Spitfire driver runs out of talent in the middle of the sweeper and misses bank by a small margin. No damage except to ego.

First 2007 event at Knights: Toyota hits curb. Rabbit snap-spins in the highest speed section of the course, less than 20 feet from a curb. Two drivers hit the timing light, and several more have semi-spins at the finish.

I see a pattern here. I've seen more cars against hard objects in four events than I saw in the first ten years I autocrossed. Does anyone care to speculate on causes? Even better, does someone care to propose a solution?

On another post, I remember seeing that CCR doesn't send a car around the course to see if it is safe before the first run. True? If so, when did we quit?

Dean-

Last question first- we are no longer sending a car around due to our interpretation of the rules and the perceived unfair advantage touring the course from inside the car conveys to that driver. Consequently the course is approved based on course walk with the safety chief and the course design team. As for when it stopped, I don't recall with any precision but it has been that way since over a season ago. Unless the course designers are taking runs at it in advance of the event opening for business, in which case I'm unaware.

As for the events you refer to and the incidents described-

We are reviewing the facts and questioning whether this is truly a "trend" developing and if so, how we can do better. Except for the NTI event, I reviewed each of those courses and gave my consent for their safety.

To the exclusion of the NTI event, each involved problems with the configuration of the finish.

We will focus our attention on this matter and it will be resolved by the school in March, I assure you.

Bill Crummett
Chief Safety Steward
CCR Member #260396

[prancingdawg]

My response to Martin Bartlett, our CCR RE, (Pistonwheels), in receipt of his email I received this morning:

Martin-

I reviewed the course design on Saturday as well as the Sunday event. The finish at the Sunday event is the main area of controversy. No rules were broken, but in hindsight, a couple minor adjustments in the orientation of the finish would have resulted in a less risky, safer finish, all factors (temperature, surface, driver experience level, etc) considered.

One previous event last year- Steven's off course excursion- was partially induced by course design and the resulting physics, in combination with overdriving the course at that point.

The incident with the Pro class driver on Sunday (CRX # 128, IIRC) was due totally to driver error/exhuberance and not in my estimation a direct result of the course design. It did not result in damage to the vehicle.

I'm not blaming Rob, although he did design those courses. I passed on both of those courses as safe, with due consideration given to the factors of driver competence, novices in particular, etc. Final responsibility for safety of the course design and our participants ultimately rests with me.

I have several other important concerns to address regarding event safety, and welcome the opportunity to meet with you to work together for the safety of our Solo event program.

Bill




Bill "Prancingdawg" Crummett
CS #25, Central Carolinas Region SCCA

[prancingdawg]

["I think backing up the finish lights 25-30 feet, and perhaps removing the last slalom cone coming to the finish would have helped, and IMHO, would not have taken away much from the course. (A hairy finish is fun of course, a hairy finish heading at curbs is not.)"]

I considered making an adjustment to the finish along the lines of what you propose, Jon, and rejected the notion for reason that some of the experienced and aggressive drivers would simply increase their terminal velocity with the extra room and the novices etc would tryta imitate them with possible worse consequences.

Bill

[prancingdawg]

["I will ramble on here for a moment. I asked the Safety stewards (Bill, Joey, and John).what they though of the course. we made a couple of changes. my thought in retrospect is that Knights is Not a usable lot anymore with respect to course safety issues verses making a course satisfying to most competitors. "]

Rob, I must disagree with your first point. Most competitors who have been coming with us to Knight's in the nine years I have been a member have complained about the limitations of the lots but have resolved to have a safe good time despite the limitations, and we had been successfully doing so until last season. The courses may not have been laid out according to your own expectations and skill level, but they were useable and safe.

The lots are what they are. It is up to our staff to make the safest and best use of what we have. In hindsight, I'm sure we could have done better and created less anxiety in the process.

Bill

[prancingdawg]

In response to the issue raised about street tires performance, my thoughts are divided. At the test n tune I specifically drove the skid pad prior to driving each of the cars I sampled that day to determine the breakaway characteristics and make the requisite adjustments to the driver. ANyone who is not a novice should find their own limits. And we advanced drivers need to help the novices with this bit of understanding, along with interpreting for them what it means to overdrive your personal limits.

Bill

[prancingdawg]

In conclusion let me say that Sunday we did not have a novice walkthrough. I do not know who decided not to have it but for future event safety I think we should reinstate the novice walk and designate a volunteer novice steward position for the season like we have done with the other chiefs.

Thank you all for your spirited discussion. As always, I'm sure we can do better and I am always looking for ways to pass along to improve the product.

Bill

[jbyrd]

As for the NTI event in question, the course was setup the day before the event, was studied for safety with Steven and I, and was pre-driven before the event. Both events at NTI were pre-driven, and if I am the SSS for an event held there, future courses at NTI will be pre-driven, as well.

(It was pre-driven by Competitors in my class, and I drove on cold street tires through the corner in question very hard - those class Competitiors not in attendence were given the opportunity on Sunday to ride as passengers prior to the competitive runs.)

The minor incident that happend took place when an extremely inexperienced driver in an extremely fast (FF) car made a mistake by accelerating too early.

If you will remember, competitors were sternly warned before the event about the consequences of unsafe driving practices. This occured because of the unusal number of "SSS to driver safety discusssions" that had taken place in the previous NTI event, and resulted in a clean event with the exception of that one minor mistake.

If we are to continue using venues like NTI for our events, we must accept the fact there could be consequenses. For one, I am in favor of not returning to the site at all, but if it is the wish of the club to return there, we must be be prepared to do the absolute best we can.

The other alternative is to limit Novice/inexperienced Competitors in certain events.

Concur with Bill.


John Byrd

[markt]

Novice in a FF? Where do I sign up? With that exception it sounds like two very experienced drivers have had one non-incident(no damage to car or venue) and one prang. I hope my son-in-law-to-be doesn't hear about that FF in Novice...he's driving my boogergreen '92 Tercel and I don't wanna hear any whining...

[prancingdawg]

That is a hideous green!

[integra55]

for what it's worth I'd like to add my $.02 .... I'm by no means an excellent driver; good/decent, but not great (2nd STS at ccr and hscc in 06) and my take on this years Knights course was that it was vastly superior to the 2 last year....those finishes were atrocious, especially the last event of 06 at Knights... anyone in a fwd car was taking a very real risk of spinning out as they crossed the line ( assuming for a moment that they cared enough to try to win their class) and the earlier one was only marginally better.... this years finish was at least quite familiar to me, as most of our finishes at Highlands follow a slalom...and they usually involve a stop box.... I know most people hate stop boxes but they do serve a purpose
just my take on the subject