Autocross Improvement Idea Thread

[czrider]

Observations on the subject of droping points event count, from an autocrosser than started competiting when Moby Dick was still a minnow.
The practice of counting all run events for points is not a long standing method for CCR annual trophy points calculation. It may seem so to folks that have run the last several years.
The main change in consideration of the number of events to count has evolved from a desire to retain competitors that now have more avenues for autocrossing than ever before.
The number of competitors lost at a specific event is usually be offset by the additional number of drivers that will view that option as putting them back into the playing field.

[soloracer]

Thank you for your observations, cz Brian. Have you been reading Tolstoy? took me a couple reads to digest the information.
My humble take on the above:
1. It is a championship.
2. one event is not a series (key word series)
3. one more than half , means participation counts.
4. the above keeps anyone from making one event and a championship.
5. The club may well expand event locations.
6. Some events in other areas will affect stratigies. like F-1.
7. so well represented classes will require participation and make the competition more interesting.

In case ths sounds like sour grapes (or toasted marshmellos) I had to struggle for the C/P trophy last year. This year therre was no way I could win as i had missed too many events. so the man who was there will win. This is fair. Congrats Keith!!
James

[taxidriver]

After yesterdays event it seems like there are 2 areas that need to be worked on.

1. There appears to have been NO thought about how grid was going to be handled prior to the 1st group being called to grid. There we easily 40 cars that needed to be gridded and there were less than 20 spots. This caused mass confusion as no one knew where to go. It also caused some people to get all there runs in rapid succession, while others waited seemingly forever.
This confusion continued thru the second group, and was only slightly better by the 3rd group.
This should not happen. Having a working grid area is nearly as important as a workable course. This should not be left as an after thought.

Solution: Make sure there is a pre-defined area that is set a side for grid. this area should allow for approx 30-40 cars. The most space efficient would be an area that would allow for 6-8 rows of 5 cars nose to tail.

2. The overzealous interpretation of the no cars moving while carts are on course rule. It is completely ridiculous for cars in the pits and in non hot grid to not be able to even have their motors running while a cart is on course. The SCCA "DOES NOT" state that no cars are to be running while carts are on course. It states that NO cars shall be "ON COURSE" while a cart is running. This is a completely different issue.
The fact that no car can move while carts run causes every participant to be negatively effected by the carts present.

If the cart is on the course, it can't be farther from harm on the site. If cars are moving in the pits and in the non hot grid the carts will not be effected in ANY way.

This would allow the 1st group to get set in grid and allow the event to proceed as quickly as possible after the cart has finished.

What happened yesterday was that at least half of the 1st group had to stop their cars in the pits and wait approx. 30-minutes before they were allowed to move to the grid. This also didn't allow the grid workers any chance to set the grid in an orderly fashion, as more cars kept showing up as the realized they were now allowed to move.

This has a simple fix. All we need to do is allow cars to move freely in the pits and non hot grid. This would allow the grid workers the opportunity to get ALL the cars set in grid before the carts are finished with their runs.

If there were a case where this could not be done safely, then this would be addressed, but for all the sites I've been to this would not be an issue.

Below is a section pulled from the SCCA Solo rule book:

APPENDIX G - KARTS AT SOLO EVENTS.
I. APPROVAL PROCEDURE

A. Regions conducting Solo events which will have karts competing must so indicate on the sanction application.

B. A post event report describing the kart portion of the event should be submitted, but not required, with the usual Audit Report Form. These event reports will be helpful to the SCCA in more effectively evaluating the kart program.

II. EVENT OPERATION PROCEDURES

A. 125cc shifter karts are the fastest karts allowed.

B. Karts will not be allowed to be driven under power through the paddock; they must be pushed, either on the ground or on a portable stand.

C. A grid area must be established that is either separated from the regular car grid or grids karts with similar sized vehicles such as formula cars. Traffic flow to and from the grid area must be controlled.

D. If karts are allowed which require a push-start, such as shifter karts, the grid area must accommodate this need adequately.

E. All karts will be run as a group or grouped with formula cars, and not intermixed on course with full-bodied cars. However, at the discretion of the Solo Safety Steward, the Event Chairman, and the Chief Stewards, karts may be allowed on course with full-bodied cars if the course design allows for safe separation, such as the start and finish areas being remote from each other.

F. Event procedures regarding karts will be announced at the drivers’ meeting and will also be in written form for posting.

[maacodale]

I'll agree with the above concerning karts. I see some negativity regarding karts in general. Can we run a one of our cars at a kart race? No. Anyway, we were at the far end of the paddock and had to stop the car. I saw another guy leaving the area of the BBQ trailer heading out. He had to stop even he was going away from the course. I'd have to agree to lighten up that rule a bit. We had a few kart issues up here in VA but they've kind of gone away from autocrossing for whatever reason. Shame too, they were fun to watch.

The paddock was a bit confused, but I've sure seen worse. In the third heat they had it rolling pretty good.

One of my biggest gripes both as a former Solo Chariman and now as a helper to NASA Mid Atlantic is POOR course working. I can't tell you how many times I saw a course worker see a pylon get hit and stand there, waiting several seconds to go and retreive the downed cone. Many times I saw a worker get a cone only to have absolutely no clue where it should be! That's time consuming and dangerous. Remember, cars are still coming at you! One thing I do, is tell workers to familiarize themselves with the course on the way out and make sure all cones are still marked. It only takes seconds and makes the event run smoothly. Also at my station, we had a few cars loop. The station 3 stations before us red flagged a few cars way too early. Granted, safety is a major concern, but an errant red flag just causes re runs and event delays.

Okay, climbing off the soapbox now. I still have a blast with y'all no matter what!

[taxidriver]

The issue with the carts isn't really a rules issue. The issue is that our safety stewards have created an issue out of a non rule, but a personal interpretation.

If we get the safety stewards to follow the rules we no longer have an issue.

I would love to hear our safety stewards explain where they have come up with the silly rule we are forced to comply with. Its not in the rule book that I can find.

If we followed the SCCA rules regarding carts, people would hold much less a negative attitude towards the carts.

I hope that the Solo Chair can convince the Safety Stewards to start following the rules, and not their personal interpretations.

If this comes off harsh I'm sorry, but this causes a problem at every event and it doesn't have to if the rules are followed.

I would hope this can open a discussion about this issue.

[sleeper]

This is an idea from a fellow driver, who I agree with: maybe we should run the carts at the END of the event, rather than the beginning.

I think this would speed up the event and probably be safer since all cars after the last heat will have left the grid area.

[lagunamiata]

Probably one of those "Its always been that way" kind of thing...

[trdriver]

taxidriver said:

The issue with the carts isn't really a rules issue. The issue is that our safety stewards have created an issue out of a non rule, but a personal interpretation.

If we get the safety stewards to follow the rules we no longer have an issue.

I would love to hear our safety stewards explain where they have come up with the silly rule we are forced to comply with. Its not in the rule book that I can find.

If we followed the SCCA rules regarding carts, people would hold much less a negative attitude towards the carts.

I hope that the Solo Chair can convince the Safety Stewards to start following the rules, and not their personal interpretations.

If this comes off harsh I'm sorry, but this causes a problem at every event and it doesn't have to if the rules are followed.

I would hope this can open a discussion about this issue.

We also have a policy requesting no cars moving at faster than walking speed in the paddock - as long as that policy is flagrantly and repeatedly ignored ... okay, make that: difficult to enforce - then, in my opinion, there should be no engines running on the site while carts are moving to or from the course. Do you think we can enforce "no engines runnning" while carts are moving to the course, then let cars move around, then stop everybody after the carts have run and are moving back to the paddock ? Or would it be safer to just ask "no engines running" until the carts are done?
I'd prefer to err on the side of safety.

Besides, why is it going to kill everybody to stop moving and watch the carts run for 20 minutes?
I think you are making a mountain out out of a mole hill.

Cheers,
Jack Mc

[lagunamiata]

I think that our Safety Stewards tend to err on the side of caution. We'd rather be more cautious than have an issue or have someone hurt.

If it were your 14 year old kid, would you want a 3,000 pound Mustang or Camaro driving down the row while he's moving the cart? I doubt it...

In the past at sites like Knights, we couldn't control the karts going and coming from paddock as easily. With all the cars coming and going their safety was a big concern. At a site like Continental, we can restrict carts to a specific area, so we can probably relax the restriction to just the hot grid area.

As for grid on Sunday, new event, new site, there are always bugs to work out. If we have another event there, make suggestions on how to make things run better. You'll find that we're very open to new ideas, especially from experienced autocrossers.

[taxidriver]

I can understand wanting to err on the side of caution, but reason has to be applied.

Per the rules B. Karts will not be allowed to be driven under power through the paddock; they must be pushed, either on the ground or on a portable stand.

As far as I'm aware no pedestrians have been hit or run over at an event. The cart wouldn't face a greater risk than any other pedestrian, if they are following the rules.

If it were my child I would make sure they are following the rules, and I would be with them to make sure of their safety.

It will not kill anyone to stop and wait around for an extra 30 minutes for 1 cart to run. But it is imposing a penalty on every other participant to have to stop everything for 1 participant. this is groosly unfair to the majority.

The carts could be moved to the grid area before the drivers meeting, as they are first out without question. Since they would already be at grid it would allow all the cars to then immediately move to the grid following the drivers meeting. Any grid problems could be being worked out while the carts are making their runs.

No time lost, no one inconvenienced. No ones safety put at risk. Also since the majority of cars would be gridded before the carts left the course area, the carts would have even fewer cars to deal with on their way back to the pits.

And with the days getting shorter this could become even more of an issue.

[lagunamiata]

taxidriver said:

The carts could be moved to the grid area before the drivers meeting, as they are first out without question. Since they would already be at grid it would allow all the cars to then immediately move to the grid following the drivers meeting. Any grid problems could be being worked out while the carts are making their runs.

And with the days getting shorter this could become even more of an issue.

Good idea.... we'll discuss and see what shakes out.

Unless we add a December event, we won't have to worry about they daylight until February.

[markt]

lagunamiata said:

taxidriver said:

The carts could be moved to the grid area before the drivers meeting, as they are first out without question. Since they would already be at grid it would allow all the cars to then immediately move to the grid following the drivers meeting. Any grid problems could be being worked out while the carts are making their runs.

And with the days getting shorter this could become even more of an issue.

Good idea.... we'll discuss and see what shakes out.

Unless we add a December event, we won't have to worry about they daylight until February.

As the one who gave the Safety Steward speech I've waited to respond. Bottom line is, I took the standard CCR approach that has been in place in my 5 years of autocrossing with this club, that is: no cars moving when the karts are running. I would agree that this policy needs reviewed and probably changed to be site specific. I've also been one of those out shagging cones during the first run group and had the pleasure of working 30+ minutes longer than other groups due to the karts.

Perhaps it's good to have had some push back on this so we examine it in light of sites and the rules. Frankly, I don't recall going over the specifics in-depth on karts when I took my SS class a few years ago. Our safety record seems pretty good but, if current policies that are not "rule bound" are creating friction/problems we need to address it.

Also, as a SS I need to have notes to refer to as well, I did not. It won't happen again...thanks, Derek

[dstan]

Mark
you said "no cars are to be running when Karts are" during the Safety talk so what is to question about that.
you were the Safety Steward and what you said should have been adhered to by all.

Like you said every event is different but the Safety Steward Is THE person that makes that determination of what is safe or not.
I did see cars moving to Grid while karts were running and most of them were stopped by people that just heard what you said

No quotes of the SCCA rulebook are needed If The SS says do it then do it, very simple!

Just my .02 worth

Dave

[taxidriver]

Dstan

I have to strongly disagree with one of your statements.

"No quotes of the SCCA rulebook are needed If The SS says do it then do it, very simple!"

The safety stewards are there to ensure the rules are followed. The rules are what they are charged with enforcing. Not their own personal fellings on how things should be.

If the safety steward said. No cars can move while he is in the port-a-john would you agree with that. I think not.

No cars moving while a cart is on course is nearly as unreasonable as no cars moving while the SS is in the port-a-john.

I know there not the same but the effect would be the same. Just trying to make a point.

[dstan]

Ok
lets look at things in perspective, Did you obey the speed limits coming to the event? If not How much did you Exceed the speed limit? did you pass any Law officers while speeding and wonder will they allow this speed or not?
The rules/laws are out there but are subject to everyones interpretation and enforcement.
I am in no way wanting to dispute you or the SCCA rule book but
The SS is God of the whole event, I think even the event chair has to agree.

It is like telling the building inspector he is wrong on a Inspection,
the biggest words in the NFPA are "Local Jurisdiction having authority"

dave

[trdriver]

taxidriver said:

Dstan

I have to strongly disagree with one of your statements.

"No quotes of the SCCA rulebook are needed If The SS says do it then do it, very simple!"

The safety stewards are there to ensure the rules are followed. The rules are what they are charged with enforcing. Not their own personal fellings on how things should be.

If the safety steward said. No cars can move while he is in the port-a-john would you agree with that. I think not.

No cars moving while a cart is on course is nearly as unreasonable as no cars moving while the SS is in the port-a-john.

I know there not the same but the effect would be the same. Just trying to make a point.

Sorry, but you are as wrong as you can possibly be and you are now treading on very dangerous ground.

The Safety Stewards are there to insure the safety of the event - if a Safety Steward is required to whip out a rule book and justify every single thing he ASKS somebody to do then we will have chaos and very dangerous events. There is a reason why novice schools include statements about "the God-like authority" of the Safety Steward.
This does not mean we cannot have a reasonable conversation about how to best to handle carts at specific sites to accomplish a safe and smooth running event, but your narrow interpretation of a Safety Steward's role and authority is entirely incorrect.

Jack Mc

[MrsVlad]

I took the SS class in '06.
I remember "the best way to ensure no cars are moving while the 'karts' are, is to, have all other engines off.

Personally, I think, we should have all the karts (jr, sr, SAEs , everything smaller than a cobra) run at the same time. Be it first or last.

[philip1]

it's simple if the safety steward says no cars are to be running then no cars run... if you don't like it .....try NASA autocross they have similar rules.

[taxidriver]

I find it frightening that Safety Stewards are accorded Godly status.

They are not gods in any fashion, they like solo police. They are there to ensure the rules are being followed. They are not charged with making rules at their own discretion, just enforcing the rules that are issued by SCCA headquarters. They are to be respected, but not to be followed blindly.

It does seem that some of our safety steward have accorded themselves godly status is an entirely different issue from the one we are discussing. The god like status of our safety stewards can be debated elsewhere.

The simple fact is that there are no rules requiring all cars on site to be motionless while carts are on course, is the issue. And reason would seem to allow for the cars on site to be allowed the ability to move as needed.

It appears that the clubs long standing policy on this issue is a relic from years gone by, and seems like it is time for it to be re-addressed.

[dstan]

Safety Stewards are not gods But do have the ability to shut an event down. at their discresion. and they are always very serious about what they do.

[MrsVlad]

taxidriver said:

It appears that the clubs long standing policy on this issue is a relic from years gone by, and seems like it is time for it to be re-addressed.

The CCR record of accidents & incidents might prove this policy works.

[philip1]

the rules are in place for your safety as well as others the stewards are the Gods of the event if they see something they think is unsafe the event is over instantly no ifs ands of butts that is what they are supposed to do. feel free to question the board of directors about the authority of Safety Stewards.

[dstan]

I think all of us are wondering.. Who are you Taxidriver?
and why are you Taxing us?
Your 14 post have been here so what is up?
are you a member if so what do you drive and what class and #

[maacodale]

We don't have karts up here in the ODR anymore and when I came back in a few years ago they were few and far between. One thing I can see doing is sequestering all karts in the grid or on the course until all are finished and they can all leave the for the paddock at the same time. I've always taken the stand that it's easier to legislate the few rather than the masses. Why can't we require the karts to be pushed through the paddock? If they aren't driven (ridden?) through the paddock they won't get run over. I understand the safety aspect, sicne I was one of the first SS for the Old Dominion Region, but stopping a guy from leaving because a kart is at the other end of the entire lot seemed excessive. Not a big deal in the grand scheme, but it might benefit the entire program with a bit of tweaking.

[autoxdad]

Our one cart that made this an issue this last Sunday was driven by a young boy. If our club feels this is a safety issue not to have cars moving, then that is what will happen. It does not hurt to have cars wait a few minutes before they start gridding. If we want to be a little more careful than what SCCA says, then that is our option. I would rather be a little safer, than trying to figure out what went wrong when a large car runs over a child in a cart. We did get the cart to the start line before the drivers meeting this last Sunday which did save some time. I believe that our safety stewards do a great job at events. Dave

[jbyrd]

taxidriver said:

They are there to ensure the rules are being followed.

That is not correct.

From the 2007 Solo Rules which you are so fond of quoting?

APPENDIX E - SOLO SAFETY STEWARD GUIDEBOOK

IX. RESPONSIBILITIES OF A SSS
A SSS is responsible for non-participant and participant safety.

*****

That's it....all of it. I would hope that as a competitor you would appreciate the fact that a SSS would take his/her job seriously. We put our names on SCCA sanctions so that you may have an event, and when something goes wrong...we are responsible.


We're not there to enforce rules, nor are we there to ensure anything.

We can't ensure anything, because indeed, we are not God-Like.

Furthermore, just in case you are wondering:

E. CANCELLATION OF EVENT BY A SSS

As noted above, the SSS has the authority to cancel the event for safety reasons if there is a lack of spectator control and spectator safety is in jeopardy, if course design does not adhere to Rule 2.1, or if participant safety is in jeopardy. Both SCCA and its insurance broker give this authority.

However, every attempt should be made to correct the safety problem before cancellation of the event is contemplated. Insurance sanction cancellation is irrevocable and should only be utilized as a last resort.

God-Like? I don't think so. Responsible? Yes.

Are we paid enough to take crap like you're dishing out? Yes we are. The satisfaction of seeing folks enjoy themselves is priceless.

This is America. Go ahead and bidch.

[dstan]

Kudos John

[markt]

I would also add that there were a few folks that got a bit too close to the course and were asked to move, no problems. I asked them as a guy just walking up, I didn't say "Safety Steward here, move it" but rather pointed out the hazard and they moved, willingly.

I think this has been a good thread, maybe we do need to evaluate each site in light of carts and once they are staged at the start, move cars on to the grid and make sure the carts are pushed, not driven in the paddock. Do I hear a second?

[taxidriver]

I'll second that motion to allow cars to move once the carts are staged. If the carts are following the rules, and the carts are walked to the grid area they face no more danger than anyone else walking around the event site.

I have no wish at all to not let the carts run. I just am bothered that everyone else is penalized un-necessarily for their presence at the event.

At no point have I attacked the safety stewards. I respect the job they are doing, and appreciate their efforts.

I do question the god-like status that they feel they are untitled to. Yes, they are able to shut down an event, but they better have a dammed good reason to do so.

It seems many here think that if a safety steward wanted to shut down an event because a green car entered the site that it would be completely reasonable.

I am of the opinion that shutting down the event because a green car showed up on site is unreasonable. Somewhere in here reason has to be accounted for.

I also don't see how knowing who I am, and whether I've been competting for many years or only a few years, whether I'm fast or slow has any bearing on the issue we are discussing.

[MrsVlad]

Everyone knows me. I'm Gracy Allen, my husband is George Burns.