CCR needs race officials

[fluid1]

A good idea to keep racers racing?

Focus more on autocross. I don't believe that your road racing is nearly as profitable for the club as autocross, is it?

I've wanted for a long time to race at a higher level. How many times has anyone from CCR been at an autocross with information for drivers to take that step up? Anyone? Bueller?
From our perspective, all we hear is "I want I want I want"
It would be great for someone to come to an event, research fast drivers, and try to get them to step up. That generates more people overall at your events, more workers, more racers. If you go for top talent in lower levels, it makes our region more competative anyway.



Just FYI.

[ccytrader]

Jun 10, 2008 11:54:37 GMT -5 fluid1 said:

A good idea to keep racers racing?

Focus more on autocross. I don't believe that your road racing is nearly as profitable for the club as autocross, is it?

I've wanted for a long time to race at a higher level. How many times has anyone from CCR been at an autocross with information for drivers to take that step up? Anyone? Bueller?
From our perspective, all we hear is "I want I want I want"
It would be great for someone to come to an event, research fast drivers, and try to get them to step up. That generates more people overall at your events, more workers, more racers. If you go for top talent in lower levels, it makes our region more competative anyway.



Just FYI.

Since this was just a FYI perhaps no one felt the need to respond? Here is a response to make you feel just a bit better about your 'suggestion/FYI' post. I know for fact this type of stuff was discussed at the last board meeting and there are some folks working on a project that will hopefully help in some of the very areas you pointed to.

This is yet another one of those things. The board can come out and mention something, then if nothing happens in an instant folks are questioning everything. Then of course if they mention nothing but get to work, folks are questioning everything.

[Sisko99]

Maybe this isn't the right place to bring this up.....but it's something I've given a lot of thought to.

Some people know that I helped out and worked F&C at the Wolf Ridge Hill Climb. That was my first time doing it...but I've got a little experience in. I only say that so people won't think I'm coming from out of left field.

First thing I would like to mention is this: The one and only reason I went to this event was to learn something about a competition I was interested in. I had a lengthy e-mail conversation with Ted about Hillclimbs and he was very informative. But in the end he recommended that I work an event to get a feel for it. So that's what I did.

Now...would I do that again? No...probably not. Why? Because I spent 2 entire days bored out of my skull. Sure...I got 1 free autox out of the deal and I did get to see some things and ask some questions. I had fun hanging out with some of the CCR people up there. But to be completely honest...there's a disconnect here.

The AutoX program is treated like a red headed step child. We're looked down upon as some sort of minor leages....or even worse, seen as nothing more than a source of people to stand in the woods, hold onto a flag and sweep rocks if need be. As Tony said above, we never hear anything out of the road racers other than "Hey....come work your ass off so I can drive fast around a track." When was the last time the Road Race did anything for any other segment of the club? I'm not trying to be an ass....I really want to know.

Sure...they don't use those words. But that's what it boils down to.

There's an attitude problem there. SCCA is not High School. Autocrossers are not the freshman class that the upper classmen get to beat up on. You don't get to look down on us...make us pay for nearly the entire operational budge of the club....then expect us to give up our free time for you as well. We're not your subordinates....we're your equals. Start treating us with respect and you might not have to worry so much about having people to work your races. Do for us and we'll do for you.

Yeah...maybe there's something for the BoD to do here....but there needs to be a serious attitude adjustment from the Road Racing group.

Anyway....that's how things look from where I'm sitting.

[cb7tuner]

I think HPDEs at the road race weekends will help get the auto-x'ers more involved with the road race side.

[lagunamiata]

Justin - Thanks' for your comments. I've heard similar comments from other SOLO participants.

You said you were "bored out of my skull." I hate to say it, but in a way, that's what should happen... a safe hillclimb event will have the corner workers doing little more than sweeping gravel and watching cars. You really don't want to extract a driver from a wrecked car or deal with something worse. Corner working at a road race is more exciting, you do get to see passing and racing - up close.

Would it matter or make a difference if some road racers came to a SOLO and hung out for a while? What if they brought the race car and answered questions about getting into road racing? What if we had a regular corner worker set up a table to answer questions about corner working a road race?

Let me know what will make a difference!

[nutdriverrighty]

This is in direct response to Sisko99's post. My name is Scott Franklin. I am speaking as Scott Franklin the road racer, corner worker, and I occasional autocrosser. I am not speaking as Scott Franklin the CCR BoD member or the SWC of the CCR Road Racing Liason.
I believe that there is a perception issue here, as evidenced by things that I read in your post as well as ther posts of others. I think that most road racers are not fans of autocrossing. I think that most autocrossers are either not fond of road racing, don't have the funds or an interest in spending the money, or whatever. The large majority of corner workers that I work with don't autocross OR road race. I autocrossed at the Highlands event this past weekend that Ted mentions in another thread. I competed at Eagle's Nest, Wolf Ridge, the Memorial Monster, and the Buck Muse Memorial Race. I'm working corners for the PCA at Road Atlanta this weekend and I'm working corners for SCR the next weekend at CMP. I think I'm a bit of a freak in the community. What MY message is in my posts about needing corner workers, etc. is trying to get some cross-pollenization among the groups. If you don't want to do it, don't. I appreciate your coming and working Wolf Ridge. Without people like you willing to give it a shot, the resources would dwindle further. When I got into working corners, I played hell trying to find out how to do it. I'm trying to see that no one else has that problem. Without new faces to replace the ones, our pool of workers for hillclimbs and road races are going to dwindle to the point of disappearing. At autocrosses, you have the fortune of having a captive audience of other drivers to work while your group runs. Imagine how different your situation would be if drivers didn't have to work. Again, thanks for giving corner working a shot at Wolf Ridge. I'm sorry that you didn't like it. I hope that others will follow your lead and give it a shot. You never know, some other masochist like me might find that they enjoy it.

[nutdriverrighty]

In response to the post that Rich beat me to, if any of you have any questions about corner work, road racing, etc. If you just want to come to an event to "crew", or whatever, let me know. My pockets are nearly empty at the moment for being a competitor, but I'm always happy to spend time with like-minded folks.
To add a little to what Rich said about corner work, it's like being and airline pilot: It's HOURS of boredom punctuated by seconds of terror. I could tell you stories, but I'll save that for later.

[tedebayer]

Hey Justin... man, I am sorry to hear that corner working at Wolf Ridge was not helpful for future hillclimbing efforts. I have worked a good number of hillclimbs and road races over the years and always enjoyed it. I am really sorry you were disappointed.

It helped me and others I have spoken to in these ways :

1.As a spectator walking up and asking questions, you get general responses from drivers... but drivers really appreciate course workers and will take time to advise, let them sit in the car, make suggestions and offer to help. John Brotbeck in SCR has been an autocrosser and big course worker for years. He can't afford a TT prepped car but he really wants to run time trials. He and I are talking about letting him use our car to run a time trial so he can get his license. You pick up ideas like where to get some cheap used tires or how to make a seat brace for $12 but from Lowes instead of a $90 one from Racer'sR'Us.
2. Format - Knowing how the course is set up, safety precautions in place, run groups, breaks, communications, etc. It helped me to know when to be where for what. Made me more comfortable and ... there's already enough on course to keep your mind busy. first time you sit on the line getting ready to charge up the hill, you could be in a Yugo with two plug wires missing and your heart would still be jack hammering! ;D
3. Confidence - it makes you feel a lot better going into a curve at speed to know there are workers attentive to what's going on, that are keeping turns clean of gravel, that are watching spectators to make sure someone doesn't run out on course, that if you are in an accident, someone will be there quick to get you what you need whether it's a fire response or EMS medical problem ...and that there is a helicopter on standy by to lift you out in emergency.
4. Socials and breaks - talking to drivers and getting a feel for the fellowship that goes with the competition. There are some great guys that I have gotten to know ... drivers and workers ... and those same guys will be there to help you out one day when you have a problem. When Mark broke at CMP time trial, he had two offers of cars to borrow so he could get points in class and one of the three guys who worked hard that night to get him back out on the road the second day was a competitor in his class. When TJ and Jeremy dumped our Miata diff at Eagle's Nest, several guys in our class helped and I can promise you, if they had one in their trailer, they would have loaned it. We are all competing but we all help each other out too.

If you want to learn how to ice skate, you can read a book or read up on the net... it will get only so far. You want to learn how to ice skate? Go to a rink, talk to skaters, mingle, learn. That's what I was hoping the experience working would do for you. It did that for me and for others in the past.

I still autocross...can't afford to road race... and TJ and I are running hillclimbs as well along with some track time trials. If I could afford to raod race again, I don't think I would. I enjoy autocross and hillclimb (TT). I have found a lot of people that want to road race that can't afford it and as they put it "suck" at autocross. For them, time trials is an option. I think the key is that what separates road racers and autocrossers and time trialers is not a pecking order or a chaste system... what separates us is that each of us finds what we enjoy and want to pursue. Road racing costs more for a driver than autocross, tires, brakes, fenders, towing. they NEED sponsors. ...it also costs more for SCCA to offer a road race but road racers are paying more in entry fees and licenses and schools. SCCA is there to provide programs for autocrossers and time trialers and road racers as well...for all. They are not a paid service provider but an organization filled with volunteers trying to give you the opportunity to find what you enjoy, pursue it, develop skills and maybe get really good. It is up to you to decide what you like, what you can afford and what you want to pursue. No group is getting discriminated against and bottom line, we are a not for profit group... no one is getting rich here. We all love cars and most of us like to compete in one form or another. For the record, you would probably spend more on building and running a season in a nationally competitive CSP autocross car than you would on a good regional road race car and a season of road racing. ;D SCCA brings the opportunity for all of us to pursue what we enjoy... not on the basis of who brings in the most money or who cost the most to hold events for and manage. We are ALL part of SCCA and we live in symbiosis. We all work together as unpaid volunteers supporting each other to get what we want and it has worked since 1947. Using this method, SCCA has also turned out big names like Mark Donahue and Roger Penske... and Bill Snivelly. You never heard of him? That's because he was a terrible driver and never won a race of any kind in his life... but he enjoyed driving and competing and he got the chance to do it!!!! ;D

I would pay money to go spectate some road races here in the southeast. If I coursework, I can go for free, get the 2nd best seat in the house, a place to stay and free food. Not too bad! A free autocross? Nice. Some of the chalets I saw at Wolf Ridge where workers stayed for free were a couple of hundred a night! I talked 4 or 5 people in to working Eagle's Nest... they thanked me and one has decided he wants to run next year. Not everyone has had the same experience you had.

Does it help to have courseworkers? You bet. Does courseworking support the region? Absolutely! I enjoyed courseworking and when I talk to someone about working, I feel like I am helping someone get involved in a really cool sport.

Anyway, Justin, I will be glad to assist you any way I can getting you in to hillclimbing. I appreciate you working as do other drivers I can assure you. If you do get your TT license and start running, you will develop a higher appreciation for course workers because without them, we don't run.

Shoot me an email and lets see what you need, get you a license and get you on a hill! You will enjoy that I KNOW... we might even make up for a bad experience you once had course working. I do apologize since I was the one who talked you into it.

No more free room and food when you are driving. On the other hand ...what you get is absolutely awesome. Let's get you up hill and then write in and tell us what you think.

Thanks man.
Ted
[e-mail]

[Sisko99]

Aug 13, 2008 12:57:25 GMT -5 lagunamiata said:

Justin - Thanks' for your comments. I've heard similar comments from other SOLO participants.

You said you were "bored out of my skull." I hate to say it, but in a way, that's what should happen... a safe hillclimb event will have the corner workers doing little more than sweeping gravel and watching cars. You really don't want to extract a driver from a wrecked car or deal with something worse. Corner working at a road race is more exciting, you do get to see passing and racing - up close.

Would it matter or make a difference if some road racers came to a SOLO and hung out for a while? What if they brought the race car and answered questions about getting into road racing? What if we had a regular corner worker set up a table to answer questions about corner working a road race?

Let me know what will make a difference!

Rich...I don't know what to tell you. And yes....I understand that the being bored is better than the alternative. I don't want to see anyone wreck and get hurt anymore than you do.

Really...the only thing I can think of is that there needs to some sort of give and take here. If the Road Race/Hill Climb/Time Trials programs need the Solo folks to do something....then they shouldn't expect us to just do it. In return for us helping them...they should do something to help us. When we have a school....come help by instructing or something. As I said....help us and we'll help them. The relationship is so one sided...there's simply nothing in it for the average or even hardcore autocrosser. Most of the people that participate in the Solo events will do something if it's in the best interests of the program. If the Solo participants knew that helping the track folks would benefit the solo program in some tangible way....then they might be more apt to help.

[Sisko99]

Scott....I think it's very cool that you like F&C. However, I think you happen to be part of the minority of SCCA members that would rather do F&C than drive. Please don't take that the wrong way. I'm a bit proponent of "To Each Their Own." That's what you like....so I say go for it. For me...my interests are behind the wheel.



To address the point about who likes what....

....I wouldn't say that Solo guys don't like road racing. I think that part of the reason they autox is because it's close by and cheap. There is a major investment in building a track car. Most people competing in solo events drive their street car. How many hill climbers or time trialers run their street cars in competition?

In fact, I would think that most autocrossers would jump at the chance to go drive a road course. I know I would. That's my plan in fact.

Aug 13, 2008 13:17:49 GMT -5 nutdriverrighty said:

This is in direct response to Sisko99's post. My name is Scott Franklin. I am speaking as Scott Franklin the road racer, corner worker, and I occasional autocrosser. I am not speaking as Scott Franklin the CCR BoD member or the SWC of the CCR Road Racing Liason.
I believe that there is a perception issue here, as evidenced by things that I read in your post as well as ther posts of others. I think that most road racers are not fans of autocrossing. I think that most autocrossers are either not fond of road racing, don't have the funds or an interest in spending the money, or whatever. The large majority of corner workers that I work with don't autocross OR road race. I autocrossed at the Highlands event this past weekend that Ted mentions in another thread. I competed at Eagle's Nest, Wolf Ridge, the Memorial Monster, and the Buck Muse Memorial Race. I'm working corners for the PCA at Road Atlanta this weekend and I'm working corners for SCR the next weekend at CMP. I think I'm a bit of a freak in the community. What MY message is in my posts about needing corner workers, etc. is trying to get some cross-pollenization among the groups. If you don't want to do it, don't. I appreciate your coming and working Wolf Ridge. Without people like you willing to give it a shot, the resources would dwindle further. When I got into working corners, I played hell trying to find out how to do it. I'm trying to see that no one else has that problem. Without new faces to replace the ones, our pool of workers for hillclimbs and road races are going to dwindle to the point of disappearing. At autocrosses, you have the fortune of having a captive audience of other drivers to work while your group runs. Imagine how different your situation would be if drivers didn't have to work. Again, thanks for giving corner working a shot at Wolf Ridge. I'm sorry that you didn't like it. I hope that others will follow your lead and give it a shot. You never know, some other masochist like me might find that they enjoy it.

[Sisko99]

Aug 13, 2008 14:22:38 GMT -5 tedebayer said:

Hey Justin... man, I am sorry to hear that corner working at Wolf Ridge was not helpful for future hillclimbing efforts. I have worked a good number of hillclimbs and road races over the years and always enjoyed it. I am really sorry you were disappointed.

Ted....I did exactly what I went up there to do. I learned how a Hill Climb worked and what I needed do to my car to prepare it. I also learned that for the near future, if I want to participate in such events, I'm going to have to find an alternative to driving my own car. I've discussed that with a friend of mine....and we might drive his track car next year.

Yes...I was bored on my corner. While I'm glad I didn't have anything to do down there in terms of the course, it would have been nice to have someone who knew what was going on down at the corner with me. I had no one to talk to....and that gave me plenty of time to focus on how much I'd rather be driving my car up the hill than standing there.

Obviously I'm more interested in driving than F&C.

But I'm glad I attended Wolf Ridge because it allowed me to learn and it wet my appetite to move into Hill Climbs.

So please Ted....don't feel like I'm upset. I'm not. You gave me good advice and I learned exactly what you said I would learn.

[nutdriverrighty]

Justin,
You give me too much credit. I would MUCH rather drive than work. I have roadraced for five years (only about 3 events per year) and have hillclimbed for the first two times this season. I do F&C because I love racihg. Also, when you reach a certain point or work for certain organizations, you can make enough money to cover your expenses. Atlanta Region pays $40 per day for Regionally licensed and $60 per day to Nationally licensed folks. I'm working the the Peachstate PCA at Road Atlanta this weekend and getting paid $75 per day. When I used to work for Road Atlanta's F&C crew, it was $10 per hour.
As far as the expense of road racing goes, I know all too well. It is possible to buy an IT7 car with a trailer for less than $5k. I saw an ITA Neon sell for less than $2500 with a trailer a couple of weeks ago. I am fortunate enough to have a brother who loves racing and we split all costs 50/50. He drives and I crew, I drive and he crews, or we split driving duties in the Carolina Cup Pro Series. (45 minute race with a mandatory pit stop. No refueling allowed). Lets us cut entry fee from $210 for one of us to $105 each. I'll never be another Schumacher (not even Ralf!!) and I just enjoy going triple digit speeds LEGALLY. I've been fortunate enough to get the occasional second or third, but I'm more likely to be closer to the rear. My brother and I didn't think we could afford to race either until we were attending a Walter Mitty Challenge race at Road Atlanta and a guy who was crewing for himself asked us to help him get the one-piece hood off of his car. We got to talking and almost bought a Spitfire from him. Although the deal fell through, Greg is a close friend and advisor. Without his input and guidance, we never would have considered it further.
If you get a hillclimb or time trial license, I promise that we can get you in a car to play with at least. CSP is legal for hillclimbs (as are other autocross classes). Seems I saw a few at Wolf Ridge and Eagle's Nest. Any club racing car is legal as well.
We're working on this cross-pollenization thing. We'll get something figured out soon, but we're going to need to help and input of the club members to make it a reality.

Scott

[cb7tuner]

Aug 13, 2008 21:01:12 GMT -5 Sisko99 said:

To address the point about who likes what....

....I wouldn't say that Solo guys don't like road racing. I think that part of the reason they autox is because it's close by and cheap. There is a major investment in building a track car. Most people competing in solo events drive their street car. How many hill climbers or time trialers run their street cars in competition?

In fact, I would think that most autocrossers would jump at the chance to go drive a road course. I know I would. That's my plan in fact.

Here is my expanded two cents on the subject. The reason I autocross is because I am only 18 and do not have the resources to have a dedicated track car. I would love to work a road race, but at this point while I am in school full time working on Saturdays usually is the bulk of my work week. If I take off to work a road race/hill climb I get a free autox ($25 value and put up in a hotel). Then I incur gasoline expenses traveling to the track.

I am not sure how aware everyone is about NASA's corner worker program, but someone explained it to me a few weeks ago. If you work 3 weekends you can turn that into credits to use for a HPDE of your choice. That is very appealing to many people. I would assume that keeps their events pretty well staffed. I cannot comment on how well it works though because I have never attended a NASA event.

Now, if CCR bundled HPDE into their race weekend, as all NASA events include, instructors would be needed for all the novice drivers. Where do the instructors come from? The road racers.

[tedebayer]

Good deal Justin. Like I said, shoot me an email and let's get started. I am working with Ryan as well. I don't know all you may need to know but I have these friends and they have friends that know for sure! ;D

Like Scott, I dreamed of racing... finally got to do some in my 20s and really enjoyed that. Later, it got to where I couldn't afford it. I didn't think I could afford it now LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE DO... and it is not as expensive as you think. It is more getting over the mental thing that there is too much you don't know, that you don't know all the rules, that you can't afford a car and gear, and bingo... you talk yourself out of even trying.

One month before Eagle's Nest last year, I had an autocross car that was not legal, no legal driver's suit or gear, a rollbar that was too low for my height and I did not have a license. Because I had past racing experience (sports cars, dirt and asphalt) I was able to get a license thanks to Steve Tompkins and Steve Eckerich. I borrowed parts from friends , some gear I bought used... guys like Marc Seiler, Jeremy Cox, Willie Stock helped with advice and I found a way. Once you can get over the mental block that says "I can't do that" you'll be amazed how things fall in to place and how many hands there are to help you. You will find the same holds true if you want to road race... as Scott described from personal experience. You don't have a car? See if you can split costs for a co-drive with someone who does. Need a car cheap? They are out there... check out Captain America...webpages.charter.net/slowautoxr/slowautoxr/CSP%20RX-7%20for%20sale.htm for $4500 now. Or the Formula Vee that sold last month for $2500 in VA ...hillclimb legal.

BTW.. rough count but about 20 of the 44 that ran Eagle's Nest are also autocrossers. The other 24 are road racers that hillclimb and a few that only hillclimb. I will climb out on a limb here and say that if we had not had road racers driving in the hillclimb, we could not justify having a hillclimb with half of the field we had. We all help each other out. If you want help or want to know how to get to where you want to be, ask. You'll be surprised the help you can get. There are some super people in all areas of our club that want you to enjoy, participate and excel. Except those whackos in the hillclimb special cars. They are nuts and the class is too full already. You don't want to run in that class anyway. Right? ;D

Glad you brought up your feelings and perspective and I hope we have cleared up some of that up. Let's get busy... there's still some flat track time trials and one hillclimb left this year. Anyone else interested in getting involved in time trial, post up, email me or Marc Seiler. Even if you are hoping to start driving NEXT year, get started on paperwork and getting understanding of rules and requirements now. School events where you can get your full license in one weekend are early in the season!

Thanks
Ted
[e-mail]

[Steve Eckerich]

My reply needs to be pre-empted like Scott Franklins. Mine is partially Steve Eckerich BOD and part Steve Eckerich Driver/worker.

First Justin, thanks for working Wolf Ridge. I mean that. We had about 10 confirmed workers bag us for the event which made your day less enjoyable. This meant one worker to a corner and nobody to BS and have fun with. Many of the workers you saw were there to watch and stepped up to help when we needed them.

Something to remember when you lay down this big divide between solo and RR or TT is that most of us started in solo. I started in 1980 and ran about 15-20 events a year including the solo nationals many times. I moved to TT and then RR. I have not run a TT in 3 years because I have worked them and find it hard to do both. I say this only to give you the theory you might be more than a little wrong about the view Road racers have of solo. Ted invited you to WR to work the event to see how it works and to put you in touch with the people that are more than willing to help you. He did not invite you to be someones flunky, or sweep our course as you stated. Thats not perception, thats BS. I loaned half the safety gear in my bag to drivers at WR and routinely help those just starting out.

Now the BOD hat. EVERY program in CCR paid its own way this year. Solo does not provide the lions share of the income and you are more than welcome to see the financial statements for any and all events. They are printed and handed out at the year end banquet and meeting. Please attend. The lions share of money for equipment was spent on solo this year with a new trailer, cones, and a truck we are fixing to pull the trailer. In years past the Road Race at CMP has subsidised the use of the track on monday for either the solo or TT program. Same was true this year. The BOD has the responsibility to support ALL the programs in the club equally. Not just the ones a certain group think make sense. Solo, TT, and Road Race are all important programs.

[ccytrader]

Aug 13, 2008 20:51:06 GMT -5 Sisko99 said:

Rich...I don't know what to tell you. And yes....I understand that the being bored is better than the alternative. I don't want to see anyone wreck and get hurt anymore than you do.

Really...the only thing I can think of is that there needs to some sort of give and take here. If the Road Race/Hill Climb/Time Trials programs need the Solo folks to do something....then they shouldn't expect us to just do it. In return for us helping them...they should do something to help us. When we have a school....come help by instructing or something. As I said....help us and we'll help them. The relationship is so one sided...there's simply nothing in it for the average or even hardcore autocrosser. Most of the people that participate in the Solo events will do something if it's in the best interests of the program. If the Solo participants knew that helping the track folks would benefit the solo program in some tangible way....then they might be more apt to help.

The relationship is one sided. Its right there at that customer/customer deal. Solo drivers expect the Club program to do something for them, provide some sort of service, something that would be beneficial to the Solo program. What do you suggest? Maybe a win-win would be if all the Club drivers came out to Solo events and shagged cones for the whole day allowing us to focus only on driving and not having to work. Give them a 45 min lunch break and we could all get 8 runs instead of 6 or less. That might also help with retention rates in Solo too, thus giving you a deeper pool to draw from for the two much needed things from Solo to Club. But I dont see that happening. They spend too much time in the garage between races prepping and working on their car. Then every race is hours away that takes up an entire weekend away from home with travel and everything.

Now at the risk of being mean and/or obnoxious here, I dont need to go work a hill climb or road race to figure out what I need to know and do in order to get behind the wheel. The SCCA actually does a pretty good job of outlining the requirements to do any of those things and all I need to do is read. And if I have any questions, I can shoot an email to any number of folks and poof! I have an answer.

I also think the perception here is very logical and directly inline with how things are said and done. The forum has just over 600 members. At least 100 members of the forum have never made a single post. Probably another 100 or so have made less than 3 posts and are usually just trying to sell something. The region has just over 800 members. Most of the action is in the Solo section and a fair amount of people that post there are not members or even active participants of CCR events. So then where are all these other CCR members? They must be Club folks because well, Solo does not draw a big crowd of regulars.

Maybe you, and this is mainly directed at the BoD, are putting the cart before the horse. Maybe if you could focus more time on making events better, you could retain more people. Maybe you could re-evaluate your incentive program, heck maybe even update the forms online like I and others have suggested numerous times. Giving a free Solo event to workers is a joke. Go out and stand in the woods for 2 days for a free entry. That is a $25 free entry. Good thing for you that it really only costs you $9.75! Kids in Bangladesh make more sewing clothes for Wal-Mart! Why not adjust the program a bit and give these folks 5 entries each at cost for one weekend or a whole season at cost for working two weekends. To avoid having to count that $.25 change, just round it up to $10.

But again, focus on running a better program from the top down. This is will be the biggest key to success. As big of a surprise as it may be to some, lots of folks look for timely and accurate information via the internet and 'companies' websites. They use email and forums to find information. They like forms they can just save to their pc, type on, print out or even email back. Tap your pool of 800 members and find people who can help. Maybe realize that you are not just a local little club of buddies but represent a nationwide organization and that people who may come along expect a certain level of 'professionalism' to be put forward. If all programs are of equal importance, then they are all suffering equally too. They suffer from complacency. The BoD and core group of workers are in reality service providers. Provide good services and more people would step up, or in other words, attitude is a reflection of leadership...........................

[lagunamiata]

Tap your pool of 800 members and find people who can help.

That seems to be a problem. We (the CCR board) ask for help and get zero responses. Look at the request for help for the annual meeting / banquet. Some smart-a$$ responses, no offers or volunteers. Guess who will end up doing all the work - a few people on the board.

I don't know what the answer is to get people to volunteer. I really wish I knew... and it seems like nobody else knows the answer either.

[lagunamiata]

Aug 14, 2008 8:35:58 GMT -5 ccytrader said:

As big of a surprise as it may be to some, lots of folks look for timely and accurate information via the internet and 'companies' websites. They use email and forums to find information. They like forms they can just save to their pc, type on, print out or even email back.

Ok, I have to respond directly to this... and personally take offense to the implication that the web site is not up to date. I've been the CCR webmaster for over 2 years. You probably don't remember how things were before then. Information got updated once a month, if that. It's now updated every few days, sometimes more often than that. The web site is as up to date as the information that is PROVIDED to me. I don't have 6 hours a day to read through city or county regulations, pull updated files from other sites. If there's something that's out of date, send me the updated information and I'll post it.
Forum - the traffic here has dwindled. That's because many former active posters feel they can't post without being attacked.
E-mail - the CCR Yahoo Group has 114 members. It gets about one message a month, if that.
Forms - back to volunteering. The only people that end up updating the forms are board members. Most of us have jobs and limited time to update a form.

We (the BoD) get no compensation for what we do. We do what we do in our spare time, when we're not participating in an event, preparing for an event, going to meetings... If being on the CCR BoD was our only job, things would be different. People get burned out and want help, but nobody wants to help, the just want... just plain want...

[tedebayer]

Rich, you do a great job for us on the forum and it is appreciated by ALL of CCR. It is far better than it was in the past in appearance, content, ease of use and timeliness of information. The first few times you had results up same day as the event, I was amazed. The danger is that once you do that and people know it is possible...THAT becomes expected. ..and it has become the norm. You have faithfully delivered and kept it up. While the rest of us are unpacking from an autocross day or resting in front of a TV, you are plugging in information on a computer so we can see how we did today. No one gets results up faster in any region I know of. Everytime I have sent an update to you for SWCCCR, I have gotten a DONE email from you with in hours.

The problem with the Service Provider concept is that it works when you receive a perceived fair value or compensation for what you pay to that provider and that the provider makes a profit that justifies staying in business. With SCCA (as Rich pointed out), it is not a service provider in that it is not making money, it is not making a profit and it is run by unpaid volunteers. If SCCA were being run as a business and was driven to make profits :
1. Entry Fees go up - true potential risk and liability insurance, benefits for full time employees and structure and training and latest tech in equipment and... no on site entries. Electronic transactions in advance to reduce costs.
2. Customer Service - must be expanded with employees, forms, policies, warrantys,
3. Programs that are not making profits would be cut out... that would include...let's see autocross, time trial and road racing.
4. If there is a timing problem or a computer delay, expect angry drivers sitting on their horns in the launch line! Rules will be contested and protests filed regularly requiring impound and trophy presentation delays. Tempers will flair everytime someone doesn't feel like they are getting what they paid for. Sounds like fun ... eh?
You know what? You can't run a SCCA chapter like that. It can't be run effectively for profits. What makes it work is people willing to volunteer, not just because it's free labor BUT the essential ingredient is...THEY HAVE A PASSION FOR WHAT THEY ARE DOING. People willing to take on a lot so everyone can enjoy. You could not pay enough to make it worthwhile to take some of the jobs that have to be done. Take a look under Rich Little's name.
CCR Board of Directors
CCR Membership Chair
CCR SOLO Chief of Tech
CCR Webmaster
Any one of those jobs is enough for 1 volunteer. Heard him complain? Nope... it is either rewarding in ways we don't understand or he is a masochist.... probably both. But we are glad to have him and others on the Board and not on the board that work the same way so we can all enjoy.

I think a BIG key is member attitude towards SCCA. SCCA is not a service provider like a Burger King where if they didn't "make it your way", the way you personally want it, you can go grab the manager and demand compensation, reparations or an apology with a promise for better service in the future or you will take your business elsewhere. It's more like ...you work FOR Burger King ... so if you don't like the way your burger is cooked then put on your hair net and apron and plastic gloves and go back at the grill and make it the way you want it. You are a member OF SCCA not a customer TO SCCA... and you are a part of success and you are a part of failure. If you want it to improve, then go help those that are doing more than their fair share and email BOD members with ideas and work in a positive way to improve things. Ask to chair or serve on a committee to work on a specific problem. Using the forum and general discussion threads as a place to push new ideas and express frustrations is not the way to make it better... it just creates division, negativity, hard feelings and friction. I have been guilty of that myself and I apologize to our members for that. We all need to work to build an even more friendly environment at events and forums where people feel comfortable, welcome and new comers see the friendships, fellowship and fun and want to be a part of it.

WE are not autocrossers, Time Trialers or Roadracers... we are first, members of SCCA. As Justin stated we are all equal. No one is looking down on anyone and we are all part of the same organization and we all need each other to make it work. Most of the guys I know that road race are thrilled to get some one else started in what they enjoy. I'd be glad to introduce you to them. Mike Burke came and spoke to our SWCCCR group and offered to take anyone with him to watch and learn if they were interested in geting started.

There are no bad guys here. We all want the same thing...to be an even better club than we are today. We just differ on the ways of getting there. The club needs help and more people to step up to share the load so we can ALL enjoy the passions for cars, competition and fellowship that originally brought us to SCCA. Is it a perfect world? No... that means it's time to get our hair net, apron and gloves... ;D

[jbyrd]

For the record, I have been in and out of CCR for decades, and I have never seen more attention from the BoD for Solo than I am seeing right now.

With that said...no one is twisting anyone's arm to work in anything. If you enjoy working events other than Solo, and you want to support the club....then do it.


Otherwise....no complaints are needed.

[autoxdad]

Hey Justin, Sorry you had a bad experience over the weekend. I have not been out there to work, since this summer has been so busy, so I can't really say what happens. However I can say that the board does back the solo program. I have been going to the board meetings for 2 years now, and can guarantee that we get great support from the board. I do not feel that autocrossers are obligated to work these events unless they want to, but the board feels that it would be a great chance for us that have not been out there to see what is going on. I also feel that the road racers do not need to come to our events and work so that we can play all day without working. I think it might help to have a couple out there at times to answer questions about the other parts of racing. Yes the free autocross, room and a meal may not seem like much payment, but if someone is interested in helping and learning about the events it is a start. As far as the free autocross being a 4-6 hour unorganized mess, I do not see where that statement came from. Any autocrosses in our area run very organized events. I am sorry someone took your thread and turned it into their own chance to talk about SCCA and the club in general. I think that it would be good for you to talk one on one with someone and voice your concerns about the event. Take care Dave

[nutdriverrighty]

Racing season is starting again!! If you are interested in volunteering in whatever specialty, but especially in F&C (corner working), then the Buccaneer Region is having their Double Driver's School in just over a month!! It will be Friday, Saturday, and Sunday and folks are needed for all three days. Contact me through this forum or at [e-mail] and I can forward the e-mail calling for volunteers. This is a great chance for everyone to practice procedures that they rarely see, such as red flag, black flag all, etc. EVERYTHING (as far as flags go) will be thrown at the racers during the school. Come on down, join the fun!!

Scott Franklin

[pistonwheels]

In regard to comments about Crash & Burn schools, I suggest you contact your local race track. Sanctioned tracks will generally stage a C & B school at least once every couple of years - for the benefit of their own workers. I know that when CMP staged one, they were OK with SCCA workers attending. I'm sure that Roebling and VIR have C&B schools - but probably not often.

[fv90]

For those interested in the ROAD RACING Stewards Program there is a Stewards School - you need to contact Bob Horansky. This is a program for Stewards In Training so hopefully any SiT recvd this invitation - it is basically attend this and get signed off as a Regional Steward in a weekend. Contact [e-mail]

"SEDIV Stewards in Training,

You are invited to attend a day and a half concentrated pilot seminar for SCCA Stewards in Training, sponsored by the Club Office to be held April 2 & 3, 2011, in Chantilly, Virginia (near Dulles Airport). This “Ground School”, as it is being called, is intended to be a fast path for qualified SIT candidates to complete their training in one weekend. This first of its kind seminar is being offered to Northeast and Southeast Divisions SITs, and is being held geographically on the boarder of our divisions.

The motivation to develop this new approach to becoming a steward is clear. We are rapidly losing our base of seasoned stewards due to the aging process, and we need a faster path to bring on the next generation. Also, the mix of stewards is shifting to a larger percentage of stewards with no personal racing experience. This is not to say that racing experience is a prerequisite to becoming a steward, but in the past a large percentage of stewards were active racers or had raced, and brought a perspective to the running of events that is very beneficial. The current apprentice/mentoring process to complete an SIT program can take multiple years, and attendance by the SIT at many events. For a current active driver, it is extremely difficult to juggle SIT participation and an active racing program. The current SEDIV three steward training seminars are oriented toward general steward continuing education, not SIT basics.

So, the Ground School concept was developed. A group led by Tom Hoffman has developed a formal curriculum, and is prepared to do a structured class that will cover all aspects of stewarding, except of course, the hands-on experiences only available at an event, particularly exposure to the other race program specialties and live Race Control operation. The intention is that a new SIT with the right prior SCCA background, could attend this seminar, and perhaps work 3 to 5 events, getting other specialty exposure and some Race Control “seat time”, and then be ready for a Regional License in one season.

Many of you are not new to the program, and have had substantial experience working other specialties, and some tower time. I am prepared to issue a Regional license to SITs in that category who complete this seminar.

The SCCA Board of Directors has endorsed this new approach to training, and has provided some limited funding for the pilot(s) seminars. Chantilly is the first, and there may well be others. I believe a $250 travel subsidy has been approved for the students. A hotel has been chosen close to the airport, and as it is managed by an SCCA supporter. I have been assured an extremely low room rate has been secured.

I am being asked to provide a list of SEDIV SITs who want to attend the Chantilly seminar at the January Executive Steward monthly teleconference (January 11th). Please let me know if you will accept the invitation.


Bob Horansky

Executive Steward SEDIV"

[srduck]

Dec 17, 2010 9:37:10 GMT -5 pistonwheels said:

In regard to comments about Crash & Burn schools, I suggest you contact your local race track. Sanctioned tracks will generally stage a C & B school at least once every couple of years - for the benefit of their own workers. I know that when CMP staged one, they were OK with SCCA workers attending. I'm sure that Roebling and VIR have C&B schools - but probably not often.

A followup to this since it's been nearly a year.... NCR/VIR are hosting a Crash & Burn school at VIR on Feb 11, 2012 from 9am-4pm.

[cr89x]

Thank you for that Duck. Glad you are so passionate about F&C, especially after your first evening doing it.

I should probably look into the Stewards school. I greatly enjoy working Pit Road. Yes, thank you all for your kind words about that topic.

[czrider]

During tomorrows BOD meeting, I'm going to make the suggestion that CCR offer some kind of perk to CCR members that are able and do attend the NCR C & B course upcoming in February. Its an excellant opportunity for individuals to see if they can find a niche that would be of interest as a road racing official.

Brian Gause
CCR-BOD

[srduck]

Dec 5, 2011 21:26:43 GMT -5 cr89x said:

Thank you for that Duck. Glad you are so passionate about F&C, especially after your first evening doing it.

You know that old saying, right..... that which does not kill me only makes me crap my pants!

[cr89x]

/\ NICE!!!