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Post by volksman on Jan 31, 2007 20:04:32 GMT -5
I can't find my rulebook, and my computer copy is stuck in the dead computer. So, that said, I want to cut the rear apron of my beetle to ease motor installation and removal. The rear apron would be made to be removable instead of being welded on. It serves no structual purpose. Is that legal? I know no one there may care, but I may take a drive to Altanta this year if I can get a handle on the driving part of this new configuration.
Also, does the safety harness need to be of a certain date or newer? My old belts are 35 years old, but my harness is about 6. Is that okay? Greg
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Post by C4Shane on Jan 31, 2007 21:16:47 GMT -5
Greg,
As far as the safety harness - mine are quite old in the Fiesta - the age of the harness is only an issue for TT, HPDE, etc. Then I think it is supposed to be 5 years old or less. As far as the rear apron I would need to look over the rules some. I know you can cut out fenders to clear tires, etc. but you can't remove firewalls, structural stuff, etc.
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Post by damnyankee on Jan 31, 2007 22:36:13 GMT -5
Wouldn't that bump him to Modified?
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Post by C4Shane on Feb 1, 2007 6:57:53 GMT -5
The rules are much more open on modified. I would need to read over the rool book sum more to decide on that. I'll take a look at it and see what it might say on the topic.
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Post by volksman on Feb 1, 2007 9:35:46 GMT -5
Okay, I bit the bullet and let my 28k dialup plow through the 2007 rules. Looking in both Prepared and modified, I found nothing specific that would include normally non-removable body parts being able to be made removable. The rules in prepared are geared towards stopping people from making belly pans and changing things in favor of airflow. Now, in theory, if someone didn't have a welder and replaced the apron with another stock one, but sheet screwed it in place, appearing stock, who would know?
In modified I found the same type of rules, with a specific ban on changing rockers and valances to lighter materials, but nothing one way or the other about how they are to be attached. Replacements of heavier material was allowed.
Back in prepared the only mention of alternative methods of attachment are in the section on doors. But I also doubt anyone would protest someone using Dzus fasteners on fenders
I know the rules are basicly "if it doesn't say you can, you can't", but is making it attach with screws a violation of the spirit of the rules?
The only thing I could find otherwise was that in section 17.1b, it would stand that I could do it, as it is a minor mod to facilitate an allowed mod. The allowed mods having to do with motor clearance and carburation.
Check out that section guys, and see if you agree or disagree. I haven't done anything yet, but I'd like to get my motor in ASAP.
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Post by jbyrd on Feb 1, 2007 12:12:38 GMT -5
I know the rules are basicly "if it doesn't say you can, you can't", but is making it attach with screws a violation of the spirit of the rules? Fenders or other body parts that come off of cars during a run and hit workers or non-participants are probably a violation of the spirit of the rules. Not sure...but just guessing. |
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Post by C4Shane on Feb 1, 2007 15:57:26 GMT -5
Yep - that is why certain parts (wheel covers and loose nuts on the steering wheel) must be removed prior to competition.
Sadly if I followed that rule entirely, I would have to remove the Fiesta...as a stiff breeze might blow it across the course.
Greg - I wouldn't protest (until you started winning, O/C - LOL) but I would say that the reattachment should be approved by tech for safety. I would recommend nut/bolt vs. sheet metal screws to avoid the issue of it shaking loose.
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Post by volksman on Feb 1, 2007 16:18:56 GMT -5
I'm not worried about it coming off during a run, I didn't even consider that it would happen. I'm not talking about putting it on with 2 number 6 sheet screws. I'm talking about four small brackets similiar in size to what's already there, but where the spot welds are, putting through bolts, like number 10 or 1/4-20.
It's that section 17.1b that might get me able to. Read that part, let me know what you guys think how that might apply. If I do good at the first two events, Atlanta is in the spring time, when they post it anyway.
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Post by C4Shane on Feb 1, 2007 16:40:36 GMT -5
Your post and mine hit about the same time. Anyways - I read over section 17.1b and the other parts. If I read your post right - you are discussing the apron at the very rear of the car? If this is considered a "external body panel" it states in 17.2.S you can lighten, replace, modify, etc as long as you maintain the overall appearance. In 17.1.B it also states modification may be made to notch, strengthen, etc. to facilitate other allowed modifications - as long as the modifications are within the intent of the rule - which would be to not provide an intrinsic performance benefit, in and of itself. I would agree that your proposed mod would not provide that benefit and would only be for the purpose of assisting in making legal mods.
Rich - do you have an opinion on this? I think it is within the rules based on those two paragraphs under 17.
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Post by MattP on Feb 1, 2007 17:12:22 GMT -5
I'd email Doug Gill for a clarification, his email is dgill@scca.com .
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Post by C4Shane on Feb 1, 2007 21:47:13 GMT -5
That would make just too much sense...
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Post by volksman on Feb 1, 2007 22:10:56 GMT -5
I thought about doing that as well. He's busy guy this time of year and I needed an answer quick, like before Sunday. I'll have Sawz-all in hand by 8am. I got the seat mounted today and fab'd a dash to hold the two switches. As soon as Advance Auto gets the ball joints in, I can get the front end back together. Tiers and wheels should be here by thursday. If I can get the motor in and fired up on Sunday, so much the better. It's looking like the reading of that section sounds the same to you too then? If anyone else has anything to say about it, speak up quick! Thanks all, Greg
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Post by jbyrd on Feb 1, 2007 23:05:49 GMT -5
I thought about doing that as well. He's busy guy this time of year and I needed an answer quick, like before Sunday. I'll have Sawz-all in hand by 8am. I got the seat mounted today and fab'd a dash to hold the two switches. As soon as Advance Auto gets the ball joints in, I can get the front end back together. Tiers and wheels should be here by thursday. If I can get the motor in and fired up on Sunday, so much the better. It's looking like the reading of that section sounds the same to you too then? If anyone else has anything to say about it, speak up quick! Thanks all, Greg Greg....I hate to tell you this, but this forum and its opinions are not official. Don't get me wrong....LB, SS, and all of us will be happy to go to Topeka with you for the Nationals....or even to a Divisional or Pro event and vouch for the fact that you didn't intend to brake the rules even if you do brake the rules.....but that still won't get you undisqualified. Ask Doug for a clarification, and get out of the hurry you're in. If time is that important, and if you question the validity of the mod.....don't do it, or you may have to "undo" it later. You obviously have a reason to suspect what you want to do is wrong, and nine times out of ten in motorsports it usually is wrong when you think that way. Get an "official take" on the question. |
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Post by MattP on Feb 1, 2007 23:19:53 GMT -5
Whenever I've emailed Doug, I've gotten a response in the next 24 hours or less. Even though the convention is going on, I wouldn't be surprised if he got back to you quickly.
A quick look at the rules makes it seem that the answer depends on if the rear apron is included in "component parts of the bodywork, such as hood, fenders, and deck lid", or if it is part of the tub. If it's a component part you can substitute a removable version, if it's not there's nothing that says you can.
Since it's spot welded on, I'd tend to believe that it's not allowed to be made removable. I may be totally off, I haven't seen enough prep cars in person to say for sure either way.
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Post by volksman on Feb 2, 2007 7:24:31 GMT -5
I'll e-mail doug and see what he say's. John, it's not so much that I think I'm doing something wrong, but I want to be very sure I'm not. I doubt I'm going to Topeka, but Atlanta for a divisional may someday get done. I do understand that we're less than official in this discussion, but you guys have way more years in it than me. That's why I started here asking. BTW, we have an event next weekend, so there's my hurry! ;D
The apron is in no way part of the tub, but i understand the angle you're going for in your view. So I'm going to ask the big guy. If I had heard that 9 out of ten on this board thought it was okay, that would have been enough, but without a general concensus I don't feel comfortable doing it, even if it's quickly reversable.
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Post by jbyrd on Feb 2, 2007 8:22:03 GMT -5
That's understood, Greg. Just remember, there aren't really that many of us familiar with Prepared and Modified rules in the Carolinas that compete on a national level, and while going for a championship may not be your intention....you never know.
You're a good driver, and seem to understand the setup of a Bug quite well. Who knows? You could end up in the Nationals some day.
Why not make sure of an questions you have now, and do it right. That's better than having a "shock" later.
JB
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Post by C4Shane on Feb 2, 2007 8:45:23 GMT -5
Yup...safest way to play for sure. Good luck Greg -
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Post by MattP on Feb 2, 2007 9:28:43 GMT -5
Yep. Like I said, I'm not sure. You might be able to assemble the car on site with dzus fasteners if you want, I really don't know how that rule has traditionally been interpreted in Prepared.
Take the time to drop the engine out the bottom of the car this time, and pull the panel later if it turns out it's legal.
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Post by volksman on Feb 2, 2007 9:52:04 GMT -5
I sent my question off to Doug, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Thanks for the kind words John, I had good and bad days. Hoping for more good!
Matt, it's not getting it out, it's getting it back in! :oThose big carbs make the motor 4 inches wider than the opening it came out of. Word from the VW guys is to cut the metal beside the motor, make a replaceable plate to cover the hole. I'm sure that's legal. (not structual, not visable) But a removable apron sure would be nice.......
I think I'll just cut the other panel for now and if doug say's I can, I'll do the apron thing at a latter date. Times a wastin'!
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Post by volksman on Feb 5, 2007 8:00:36 GMT -5
I got word back from Doug Gill and feels that it is legal to make teh rear apron removable. The rule in 17.1 is very wide open he say's, and he reads it to mean that if the motor is legally mod'd and the apron thing facilitates that mod, then it's legal.
But I will use real bolts and locknuts to secure it. Greg
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Post by lagunamiata on Feb 5, 2007 9:08:21 GMT -5
Glad you got the word from the right person. Make sure to save the e-mail and put it in your tow vehicle, just in case anything were to happen at a non-CCR event.
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Post by C4Shane on Feb 5, 2007 20:14:25 GMT -5
Glad the interpretation followed what they seem to say in the rule book. See you in E/P Greg! Let's have some fun
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