upgrades

[jwhite]

I've got some questions...

I guess I'm gonna go ahead and finish prepping my car for stock class. About the only front stabilizer bar I can find for my car is this one...
www.racinglab.com/to94ce2sutea.html

It says it's 15/16" which is not that much (if any) bigger than the one that came with the car. Would it be worth it to install this one? Also, I think it comes with poly-urethane bushings. Are those legal in stock class?

Secondly, how 'bout the alignment. The camber is not adjustable, but I think the toe is. Is having the toe-in adjusted beneficial or a waste of time?

Must... beat.... MINI Coopers....

[1993civicsi]

John...my 2 cents...

Whiteline has a nice graph on their site giving approximate stiffness increase per size. Pretty good info, I thought. Check it out!

Poly bushings are Stock legal and WELL worth it...to me. If you don't upgrade the FSB, you can still switch to poly bushings. Energy Suspension makes good products. I ordered mine from Summit. Use the supplied lube liberally, or they'll squeak!

I think a little toe out up front is also worth it as it can help turn-in. I'd check with other 'yota peeps and see what they're running.

t

[Warp3]

Bushings and endlinks for the front antiroll bar are treated as "method of attachment" and are legal in Stock. ;D

Does your car have a McPherson strut style suspension in the front? If so, get the biggest front bar you can as the bar will help minimize camber loss on the outer wheel when the body rolls (by reducing the amount of roll). Even if you don't have a McStrut setup, the front bar makes a notable different in body roll on cars where that end is heavier (i.e. most FWD and AWD cars).

Front toe out helps turn in and rear toe out helps rotation, so both are useful in autocross alignments. However, toe also wears tires faster than any other alignment setting (and rear toe out can make the car dangerously twitchy if you add too much).

If your front camber is adjustable, you want as much as you can get (which is likely still not even close to enough). If your factory service manual allows crash bolts (smaller strut bolts to fix post-collision camber issues), then these are also legal in stock as well. If your rear camber is adjustable, you'll likely want to reduce it from stock to help rotation (depending on how much it has stock, of course).

[jwhite]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll have to check out the Whiteline website. I guess if the aftermarket fsb is stiffer than the stock one, it would be worth the investment even if it is the same diameter. And the poly bushings should make a huge difference. Since the stock rubber ones I have are probably a little worn out with 294,000 miles on 'em. MacPherson strust syle? Not sure what that is. I've heard of it but I don't know if I have it. I know there's no camber adjustment on the front wheels. Not sure about the rear.

Now, toe out... that's where the wheels point out normally, right? Instead of straight ahead? Someone else has mentioned the crash bolts. It might have been you, Warp3. Nobody else that I've talked to (ie. Toyota Dealership) had any idea what I was talking about, though.

[jwhite]

Well, I checked Whiteline. Their FSB is 22MM. While Suspension Technique's is 15/16". If my math is correct, I think that's bigger. I'm still not sure what my current FSB width is. But, I guess the ST one would be an improvement. Either of them would probably be an improvement.

Would these be considered "crash bolts"?
www.tirerack.com/suspension/suspension.jsp?&make=Ingalls&model=FastCam+Bolt&group=FastCam+Bolt&autoMake=Toyota&autoModel=Celica+GT&autoYear=1995&autoModClar=&partNum=NI81290&perfCode=S

[1993civicsi]

Any dealer should be able to find the size of the OEM FSB if you provide the car's VIN. Or, you could always measure it yourself with a caliper...or even a small piece of string. (I'd prolly call the dealer first)

Ya, the ST bar is nearly 24mm. I've heard good things about thier products, too. I'd check around as you might find a larger bar from another source.

If you don't have one, a quality Factory Service Manual (like Helms) would be a great investment. It will provide most of the car's specs, including alignment settings.

I'd get the alignment checked (first) to see what you've been running. If it's way off, you could go to factory spec and see how you like it. If it's within spec (or really close) you could try a little toe out up front. 1/16th to 1/8th (Front) of an inch wouldn't be a bad place to start to help with turn-in. At the very least, I'd make sure it's set at factory spec.

Again, I'd check with other 'yota peeps and see what popular alignments are. For that matter, what size sway bars, etc.

Hope this helps!

[jwhite]

Thanks for the info.

My current alignment should be pretty straight all the way around. I had it done after putting the Koni's in earlier this year. I'd like the car to turn a little quicker, but I don't want the rear end to come around on me any more than it is currently. I'm not real good at that whole drifting thing. Maybe I should take the front Koni's off of their firmest setting... I don't know. Hopefully, I can make the 24 hour event to test a bunch of different stuff.

[jwhite]

1993civicsi said:

Again, I'd check with other 'yota peeps and see what popular alignments are. For that matter, what size sway bars, etc.

Hope this helps!

I wish there were more Celica's out there autocrossing.

[1993civicsi]

bigsur said:

1993civicsi said:

Again, I'd check with other 'yota peeps and see what popular alignments are. For that matter, what size sway bars, etc.

Hope this helps!

I wish there were more Celica's out there autocrossing.

Try this...looks like a great starting point, even though much of the Q's are ST related...

www.newcelica.org/forums/archive/index.php/f-13.html

If the rear's loose, you could try a tad of toe-in and/or softer rear shock settings.

(Wishes someone more knowledgeable would jump in (again) as this is very much the "blind leading the blind.")

[jwhite]

LOL. Well, I don't have adjustable rear shocks. They're not available. So toe-in I guess is my only option. That's toe-in on the rear, right?

[C4Shane]

Well, this won't help much, but I run 3 degrees of negative camber on the front with 3/8-inch toe out (yep, she turns in real well - it just won't go straight). Rear is square, but I might bend the axle to fix that problem. Anyways, this works great on an E-P Fiesta - I used similar settings on the Saab, just not quite as agressive.

[jwhite]

So, if I can find some crash bolts for the front, run as much negative camber up front. And toe-out up front will help with turn in? Will that make the rear uncontrollable? Actually, that's more of a concern to me than turning in quicker. Maybe it's just poor driving style, but lately the rear end is very loose. It could be because I'm waiting until the last possible second to lift, and I've already started turning.

[1993civicsi]

Actually, that gives MOI an idea...didn't know about the crash bolt thing. As much body roll as I get, I'm sure a little neg camb would be a good thing!

Thanks, Shane, for jumping in!

J, I had gotten into the habit of braking late and trying to trail brake, too. Evo (Rob F...THANKS Rob!) amazed me by braking a tad earlier and being OFF the brake @ turn in...HUGE difference. Something to think about!

[jwhite]

Let me know if you find out anything about the crash bolts. I can't find any for the Celica. Yeah, I know about the "brake in a straight line" thing. At the last event I was at, I wasn't braking at all, though. I was just lifting a little to try and slow down for a wide left hander. Everytime, the rear end came around on me. Well, twice anyways. Then it started raining, so I have no idea what I was doing after that.

Here, watch.



But, you're right. I need to get that done before turning.

[Warp3]

Reminder, though, that crash bolts are only legal, *IF* the official Toyota factory service manual says they are an acceptable part for repair! If they aren't in the FSM, they aren't legal for stock. (For example, Subaru makes no mention of crash bolts in the 2006 Impreza FSM, so my WRX can't use anything but the stock camber bolts in Stock class.)

It sounds like you need more turn-in, but less rear-end rotation. Upgraded front swaybars and endlinks both help turn-in as does front toe out (though the front bar does it at the expensive of extra understeer at the cornering limit, though that cornering limit is usually higher than without the bar due to the better camber curves and reduced body roll, so it's still an overall win).

To stabilize the rear, first take the suggestion above of finding out what your current alignment is. If you have any rear toe-out, dial it back toward zero toe or even move slightly into toe-in territory to reduce the rotation of the rear. You can also try adding some negative camber in the rear, if your rear camber is adjustable, as that will add grip to the rear of the car when turning. The bigger front bar will also reduce rear-end rotation somewhat as well (especially at the cornering limit) due to the stiffer front roll rate.

[1993civicsi]

(What the Shanes said)

Nice vid, btw. Neat to see Williams-Brice in the background!

PS...you could just buy Donna Frank's car and be done with it.

[Warp3]

1993civicsi said:

PS...you could just buy Donna Frank's car and be done with it.

The man does have a point...that car is quite well prepped from what I've seen. At the very least you could ask Charles and Donna what they suggest for Celicas and Stock class prep.

IIRC, both Brian Priebe and G. H. Sharp used to run Stock-class Celicas as well. I don't think Brian's local, but G. H. is (though I don't see him at local autocrosses that often).

[jwhite]

warp3 said:

Reminder, though, that crash bolts are only legal, *IF* the official Toyota factory service manual says they are an acceptable part for repair! If they aren't in the FSM, they aren't legal for stock. (For example, Subaru makes no mention of crash bolts in the 2006 Impreza FSM, so my WRX can't use anything but the stock camber bolts in Stock class.)

It sounds like you need more turn-in, but less rear-end rotation. Upgraded front swaybars and endlinks both help turn-in as does front toe out (though the front bar does it at the expensive of extra understeer at the cornering limit, though that cornering limit is usually higher than without the bar due to the better camber curves and reduced body roll, so it's still an overall win).

To stabilize the rear, first take the suggestion above of finding out what your current alignment is. If you have any rear toe-out, dial it back toward zero toe or even move slightly into toe-in territory to reduce the rotation of the rear. You can also try adding some negative camber in the rear, if your rear camber is adjustable, as that will add grip to the rear of the car when turning. The bigger front bar will also reduce rear-end rotation somewhat as well (especially at the cornering limit) due to the stiffer front roll rate.

excellent. well, I've got the new bigger, stiffer poly bushing front sway bar on order. I guess after that's installed, I'll go have an alignment and see where I'm at. adjust camber on rear wheels and possibly toe.

Now, the Factory Service Manual.... the dealer should have that? Or would a Hanes manual have that info? So, that link above to the Tire Rack page was not for crash bolts, I assume.

I don't know about buying someone else's Celica. That just wouldn't seem right. Isn't that a 2000 + model that they're driving? The only problem with mine is since it's so old, it's hard to find stuff for it. ie.. can't find a Cat-back exhaust for it. But, I was gonna save that questiom for the next thread called, "Someone help me find a Cat-back exhaust!"

[1993civicsi]

Ya, a dealer should be able to order one...Helms also makes good products. Haynes can be a tad vague...at least to me. For legality, I'm sure the manual should be actually published by the manufacturer. (Or, at least be able to print out a TSB from Toyota on the subject.)

As for the other car, the STRONG thing going for it is it's already Nationally prepped.

You might be as well off going to a local (reputable) muffler shop and getting a cat-back custom made, along with a better flowing muffler. Likely cheaper, too! There are TONS of quality systems for my car...and they come with a premium price! ($350+). Actually heading off to a local (reputable) shop now to check pricing. I'm hoping under $100, especially if I stay with my el cheapo eBay muffler.

(I've actually received a good many compliments on the car's sound with that cheap can!)

If you can get he bar installed before the 24 hours...esPECIALLY if it's adjustable...that would make a GREAT TnT.

Or, you could simply drive a Honda...ANY Honda. TONS of aftermarket support!!!

(JK, btw)!

UPDATE
Yep...under $100 keeping my can, with 1/4 or 1/2" larger (can't decide) mandrel bent tubing.

UPDATED UPDATE
$66.36 installed, 2 1/4" tubing (+1/4" from OEM), from the cat...well...BACK...with the el cheapo can. A little louder...not quite as mellow sounding...a tad more "bite" to the sound, if you will.

Performance? Felt a tad stronger above 4K...more noticeable now when VTEC switches over.

Bottom line, can't really say 100% w/out a dyno comparison, but it does feel stronger in the upper revs. Price tag certainly fit my strained budget! ;D

[Warp3]

bigsur said:

Now, the Factory Service Manual.... the dealer should have that? Or would a Hanes manual have that info?

For stock legality, it would have to be documentation straight from Toyota, not a 3rd party like Haynes, Bentley, Chiltons, etc. (as the whole point is to prove that the original manufacturer (in this case, Toyota) explicitly shows this as an acceptable "repair" for their cars). Any Toyota dealer should be able to sell you the factory service manual set (or at the very least point you to who can). Also you can frequently find FSMs on eBay. Also keep in mind that FSMs are often multiple books (covering different sections), so you may not need to order the whole set to get the documentation you need for "crash bolts" (which should be under something along the lines of suspension or possibly crash repair).

So, that link above to the Tire Rack page was not for crash bolts, I assume.

"Crash bolts" are really just another name for camber bolts. The difference is that crash bolts refer to camber bolts that are designed to be used to correct camber changes caused by crash damage (i.e. because the car can't be aligned to factory specs due to the results of the damage).

Here is the wording from the rulebook (in the clarifications section):

"SUSPENSION ADJUSTMENT
The Stock category suspension adjustment allowances do not allow
non-factory-authorized use of eccentric or smaller bolts. Factory
authorized crash repair methods may only be applied to the extent
needed to restore the suspension to within it specified range of
adjustment. The crash repair methods referred to would include
such methods as frame, unibody or suspension component
straightening (bending) or unlimited grinding of attachment holes.
Section 13.8 does allow the use of factory authorize methods of
adjustment for non-competitive use which have a specific, physical
limit. Examples would include the alternate size bolts authorized by
VW for the Golf and the grinding of strut mounting holes to a specific
dimension authorized by GM for J-cars. Any alignment
specifications resulting from these authorized methods are allowed."

[Warp3]

...and here is the rule from the Stock category rules:
"B. Both the front and rear suspension may be adjusted through their
designed range of adjustment by use of factory adjustment arrangements
or by taking advantage of inherent manufacturing
tolerances. This encompasses both alignment and ride height
parameters, if such adjustments are provided by the stock components
and specified by the factory as normal methods of adjustment.
However, no suspension part may be modified for the
purpose of adjustment unless such modification is specifically
authorized by the factory shop manual for non-competition purposes."

[jwhite]

Alright. I think I'm screwed, but I'll run it by you guys to make sure. I got some part numbers for some crash bolts, but apparently they're for Celicas years 96-99. Mine's a 95. Does that mean I can't use 'em in stock class? I didn't think there was any difference from 94 to 99.