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Post by Sisko99 on Feb 8, 2007 21:16:39 GMT -5
I think I understand where Tony is coming from here. I will attempt an explaination because it seems that his concerns are being misconstrued. Tony...please correct me if I'm incorrect.
Let's say there are two 350Z's in this example. Both are equal in every way except one: One is a BS car with R-Comps and the other is a BS-T car with street tires. Now, in every day AutoX life, this doesn't matter one bit because they're seperate classes and are not competing against each other. But with the introduction of the team concept, these two cars would now be competing against each other in the Team Competition. Now...because one Z is on R-Comps and the other is on Street Tires, the second Z is almost certainly going to run a slower time...and since these two cars have the exact same PAX multiplier, the team with the BS car is going to win out (assuming the other 4 scores to be equal).
So while the arguements about who you are and are not competing against are valid in every day AutoX, they aren't so much in this context because everyone on one team is competing against everyone on another team. But because a Tire Class car has a distinct disadvantage with respect to a non-Tire car, yet has the exact same PAX multiplier, that team member will almost always lose.
Now...as I said with regard to JB's assertation that the Subarus would always win, anything can and does often happen (which is why we play the game despite what it says on paper). So while it's possible for a Tire Car to run better than a non-Tire car of the same class, it's unlikely. Which perhaps applies to the other PAX'd classes (Novice....) as well, but I won't go there at the moment.
Anyway....I hope that clears it up a bit? Though I will point out that the point here is to have a bit of fun. I would like to ask Tony to reconsider his decision to not join in. I know that we'd love to have him come play as our chances of victory would increase.....and because anything can happen.
Moving on: I don't know how much my opinion will count here...but I tend to agree with those people who would like to use a weighted points system. Ie....you have a standard scale and then have some sort of multiplier based upon the number of cars in the class at the time. It seems like some people have already given this a lot of thought. The way I see it, this takes a lot of the politics out of it and brings it down to hard facts: You placed X in your class and you earn Y points because you had N people opposing you. And given that you only count one car from 5 seperate classes, you take the best 5 scores out of your group and apply that towards your total.
Just because NCR uses PAX doesn't mean we have to. This isn't official...so we can set up any rules we see fit to set up. We've got till Event 2 to iron something out...and my vote goes for the weighted points system.
Either way I'm in.
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Post by soloracer on Feb 8, 2007 21:29:09 GMT -5
Like P' dawg my money is goin inta the house. Suppose we divide the times by money spent on the car? We could call it PAM. Performanced Assesed Money. A 45K lotus has times divided by that . While my c/p car is divided by 1.5 k? Just kidding. I am out of any team competition as the local region is weak in real C/P cars. We just want to have fun. No one is really C/P , just outside the rules for any other class. And do we really want to up the ante to play in C/P? Pax sux. If I wanted PAX, I would bracket race. Heads up is the only Way to race.
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Post by fluid1 on Feb 9, 2007 10:58:04 GMT -5
Tony, if you don't want to play with the team thing because of the tire issue, that's fine, and we will miss you. But, I think that Steve's suggestion is the best option that we have going so far. I agree that the Tire class does not get an even shake, however, you are the one that chooses to run in tire class. you can always come play in BS!!! ;D If I had known about this before I purchased the Azenis, I might have gone with Hoosiers and raced in BS.
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Post by fluid1 on Feb 9, 2007 11:10:53 GMT -5
I think I understand where Tony is coming from here. I will attempt an explaination because it seems that his concerns are being misconstrued. Tony...please correct me if I'm incorrect. Let's say there are two 350Z's in this example. Both are equal in every way except one: One is a BS car with R-Comps and the other is a BS-T car with street tires. Now, in every day AutoX life, this doesn't matter one bit because they're seperate classes and are not competing against each other. But with the introduction of the team concept, these two cars would now be competing against each other in the Team Competition. Now...because one Z is on R-Comps and the other is on Street Tires, the second Z is almost certainly going to run a slower time...and since these two cars have the exact same PAX multiplier, the team with the BS car is going to win out (assuming the other 4 scores to be equal). So while the arguements about who you are and are not competing against are valid in every day AutoX, they aren't so much in this context because everyone on one team is competing against everyone on another team. But because a Tire Class car has a distinct disadvantage with respect to a non-Tire car, yet has the exact same PAX multiplier, that team member will almost always lose. Now...as I said with regard to JB's assertation that the Subarus would always win, anything can and does often happen (which is why we play the game despite what it says on paper). So while it's possible for a Tire Car to run better than a non-Tire car of the same class, it's unlikely. Which perhaps applies to the other PAX'd classes (Novice....) as well, but I won't go there at the moment. Anyway....I hope that clears it up a bit? Though I will point out that the point here is to have a bit of fun. I would like to ask Tony to reconsider his decision to not join in. I know that we'd love to have him come play as our chances of victory would increase.....and because anything can happen. Moving on: I don't know how much my opinion will count here...but I tend to agree with those people who would like to use a weighted points system. Ie....you have a standard scale and then have some sort of multiplier based upon the number of cars in the class at the time. It seems like some people have already given this a lot of thought. The way I see it, this takes a lot of the politics out of it and brings it down to hard facts: You placed X in your class and you earn Y points because you had N people opposing you. And given that you only count one car from 5 seperate classes, you take the best 5 scores out of your group and apply that towards your total. Just because NCR uses PAX doesn't mean we have to. This isn't official...so we can set up any rules we see fit to set up. We've got till Event 2 to iron something out...and my vote goes for the weighted points system. Either way I'm in. I could kiss you.
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Post by lagunamiata on Feb 9, 2007 11:54:51 GMT -5
I'm staying away from those Z drivers... ;D making out in the paddock...
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Post by fluid1 on Feb 9, 2007 12:01:32 GMT -5
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Post by C4Shane on Feb 10, 2007 5:33:24 GMT -5
I'm gonna be sick......
"Waiter ~~~~
Check Please!!!!!!!!!!!"
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Post by prancingdawg on Feb 10, 2007 21:28:54 GMT -5
HE IS a fine piece of man candy... in his mind! weiner
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Post by prancingdawg on Feb 10, 2007 21:29:16 GMT -5
ignatz!
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Post by prancingdawg on Feb 10, 2007 21:29:56 GMT -5
dawg
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Post by prancingdawg on Feb 10, 2007 21:30:34 GMT -5
JB, uh, it doesn't workee...
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Post by fluid1 on Feb 12, 2007 15:26:11 GMT -5
You love me Bill. xoxo
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Post by prancingdawg on Feb 12, 2007 16:54:41 GMT -5
Tony, if you show up in the Observer tomorrow I want your autograph, mk?
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Post by lagunamiata on Feb 12, 2007 20:06:14 GMT -5
JB, uh, it doesn't workee... Look now... ;D
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Post by C4Shane on Feb 12, 2007 21:18:13 GMT -5
go ahead...try it....really...its fun!!!
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Post by prancingdawg on Feb 12, 2007 22:11:05 GMT -5
didn't work
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Post by prancingdawg on Feb 12, 2007 22:11:26 GMT -5
ignatz
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Post by prancingdawg on Feb 12, 2007 22:11:47 GMT -5
nope
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Post by prancingdawg on Feb 12, 2007 22:14:09 GMT -5
I see that no one seems to care about the Tire class situation but me. Pity. Tire class... pax...meh...
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Post by mattwrx on Feb 15, 2007 16:52:08 GMT -5
Maybe I should rethink my strategy of running in STU this year... since Team Subaru may not yet have a player in AS.
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Post by crash477 on Feb 15, 2007 22:31:08 GMT -5
Yeah we need an AS player!
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Post by sleeper on Feb 15, 2007 22:32:54 GMT -5
Allow me to suggest that should start a separate Team Subaru thread ;D
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Post by lancer360 on Feb 21, 2007 0:48:52 GMT -5
A draw back to the weighted points system would be the lack of data to base it off of. Any weighting system depends on lots of data and past history to develop it. With nothing really to base the weighting system off of, it is a complete guess as to how to weight each class by the number of participants. You might as well just pick the winning team out of a hat and the end of the season (assuming you have reasonable participation by at least two teams)
If you look at the data that goes into figuring the Pax it is pretty impressive. I would imagine that most people that have a complaint regarding the pax that is applied to them doesn't really come down to the accuracy of the pax, but the accuracy of the rules that put them in the class to begin with. Some of this is by choice and some of it is just the way the class rules where written.
My new exhaust is a good example. I put on an aftermarket exhaust that had several tips to choose from. If I chose the tips that exited in the stock location I would still be in SS, but I really like the look of the tips that came through the rear grill. Because this required modifying the rear grill, I was put into ASP yet it had no performance advantage whatsoever. It was my choice to make though that put me into ASP and gave me a higher pax.
The end user ultimately decides where he wants to compete though from tires to forced induction, whether it be money or other factors that drive the decision.
That being said, I wonder if we have enough data from past years to develop a pax modifier for tire class. If the data is already electronic, it shouldn't be too hard to throw something together in Excel. Comparing the percentage time difference between each tire car and the winning car in the comparable open class. Then compare each of these percentages to one another. If we have enough data, the percentages should start to get relatively close. If the are all over the place then we would be back to square one. This would take a little bit of doing, but if we are leaning towards pax times for the team rules I am willing to take a crack at it.
Sorry for the stupidly long post, the engineer in me took control of the keyboard! ;D
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Post by sleeper on Feb 21, 2007 9:15:26 GMT -5
That being said, I wonder if we have enough data from past years to develop a pax modifier for tire class. If the data is already electronic, it shouldn't be too hard to throw something together in Excel. Comparing the percentage time difference between each tire car and the winning car in the comparable open class. Then compare each of these percentages to one another. If we have enough data, the percentages should start to get relatively close. If the are all over the place then we would be back to square one. This would take a little bit of doing, but if we are leaning towards pax times for the team rules I am willing to take a crack at it. It's very difficult to do. For example, comparing a BS car to a Tire BS car has too many variables, including car setup/modifications and driver skill. If someone is willing to step up and try to find a PAX modifier for Tire class please post it here. I've tried and was not able to come up with a fair and reasonable number.
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Post by lancer360 on Feb 21, 2007 9:38:16 GMT -5
It's very difficult to do. For example, comparing a BS car to a Tire BS car has too many variables, including car setup/modifications and driver skill. If someone is willing to step up and try to find a PAX modifier for Tire class please post it here. I've tried and was not able to come up with a fair and reasonable number. If you have enough data statistics will average everything out, but it will take a fair bit of data. In theory the percentage difference of AS to TAS and BS to TBS, etc should work out to be roughly the same. If they aren't then we most likely don't have enough data to make it meaningful. Like I said, I'm willing to take a crack at it and see where the data leads if somebody has the results from at least a few years worth of CCR competition in electronic format.
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Post by C4Shane on Feb 25, 2007 21:52:27 GMT -5
Yawn...letz go drive fast and have fun!!!!!
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