Team Competition Rules

[lagunamiata]

Central Carolina Region
Team Autocross Rules

Team Rosters

1. Teams must have a team name and a permanent roster
2. 6 drivers minimum per team
3. 12 drivers maximum per team
4. Drivers may be added any time during the season provided you do not exceed the 12 driver maximum
5. Drivers on a roster can not be substituted for during the season.

Captains

1. Team captains shall be responsible for team members meeting class requirements.
2. Captains must file a class check sheet on each driver prior to his participation.
3. Captains shall turn in an active roster form to timing and scoring at the end of the registration period and prior to the team meeting.
4. Captains shall be responsible for tabulating there final score at the end of each event using the active roster form.
5. Any grievance must be filed in writing with in 24 hours to the chapter coordinator
6. The chapter coordinator shall have the right to determine the outcome of any grievance.

Scoring

1. The season champion will be based on the points system.
2. Event scoring will be based the top PAX times for 5 different classes
3. Only one driver per class can score for a team.
4. If no team is represented by 5 classes then the next highest number of classes represented will determine the winner.
5. The team with the lowest total PAX times is the winner.

[fluid1]

I see that no one seems to care about the Tire class situation but me. Pity.

[lagunamiata]

fluid1 said:

I see that no one seems to care about the Tire class situation but me. Pity.

I think your concern is a little off base... no offense intended!

A 350Z running in B-Stock-Tire is NOT competing for points against a STi running in STU or a 350Z in B-Stock running Hoosier's.

Look at the top 4 times from the season finale event from the TIRE class...

1Tm gs Steve Shin 02 Nissan Sentra SE-R 33.058
2Tm bs Tony Ignatz 03 Nissan 350z 33.129
3Tm ds Vick French 05 Subaru WRX 33.653
4 m hs Jack McGahey 73 Triumph TR6 34.015

In this case if it was Team Nissan, Steve would get points for finishing first.
If there were team Z, Tony would get 2nd place points.
If there were team Subi, Vick would earn 3rd place points.

I'm not sure how else to explain it...

[sleeper]

We need to clarify this, whether the team points are based on class finishes or overall pax ranking.

[lagunamiata]

I've asked Richard Franklin, NCR's AX chair for clarification. Will post the answer.

[fluid1]

I eagerly await info.

[lagunamiata]

As things have gotten really out of whack on the other thread, I'll try to clear things up here using an example from last year.

2 teams:
Team Beer: S. Findland (EP), W. Crummett (CS), R. Little (STS-2), J. Farris (CP), Jack McGahey (HS-T), D May (CSP), M Seiler (CSP)
Team Nissan: K Christopher (BS-N), S Shin (GS-T), T Ignatz (BS-T), M Bright (BS), D Bruner (PRO), M D'Amico (HS), T Hammock (GS-L)

We'll use the May 13, 2006 event as the example.

Here are the PAX times for each team member.
Team Beer:
Findland - 31.489
Crummett - 29.273
Little - 29.680
Farris - 33.014
McGahey - 30.448
May - no time
Seiler - 29.988

Team Nissan:
Christopher - 30.643
Shin - 29.844
Ignatz - no time
Bright - 28.456
Bruner - 27.455
D'Amico - 31.027
Hammock - 28.352

Here's how the team members finished in their respective classes:
Team Beer: Findland - 2nd, Crummett - 1st, Little - 2nd, Farris - 1st, McGahey - 2nd, May - none, Seiler - 5th.
Team Nissan: Christopher - 4th, Shin - 1st, Ignatz - none, Bright - 1st, Bruner - 1st, D'Amico - 2nd, Hammock - 1st.

Now we take 5 team members across 5 DIFFERENT classes and add their PAX times together.

Team Beer takes the 5 best finishers and adds the times, drop May and Seiler. Total - 153.904
Team Nissan takes the 5 best, drop Ignatz and Christopher. Total - 145.134

At this event, Team Nissan would win over Team Beer.

[fluid1]

Using PAX is not fair, not a level playing field.

The example is nice to show how it works, but my hypothetical PAX in tire class, with street tires, is the exact same as Michael Bright's when he raced in BS. How is that REMOTELY even?

[lagunamiata]

fluid1 said:

Using PAX is not fair, not a level playing field.

If you don't like PAX, complain to the people that developed it.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the PAX (really should be called RTP now) index, but it's the best we've got.

[fluid1]

lagunamiata said:

fluid1 said:

Using PAX is not fair, not a level playing field.

If you don't like PAX, complain to the people that developed it.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the PAX (really should be called RTP now) index, but it's the best we've got.

It's not about me not 'liking' PAX, Rich.

How can you not see that this is not fair without an additional modifier to the Tire class?

[fluid1]

fluid1 said:

Using PAX is not fair, not a level playing field.

The example is nice to show how it works, but my hypothetical PAX in tire class, with street tires, is the exact same as Michael Bright's when he raced in BS. How is that REMOTELY even?

.

[lagunamiata]

fluid1 said:

The example is nice to show how it works, but my hypothetical PAX in tire class, with street tires, is the exact same as Michael Bright's when he raced in BS. How is that REMOTELY even?

It is fair because you're not competing against Michael Bright in BS.

You're competing against Steve Shin, Jack McGahey, Vick French, Steve Berry... all the guys listed in the Tire section of the entry list and results.

A BS 350Z car SHOULD be quicker than a GS Sentra SE-R. Thus the Sentra gets a better multiplier.

Hell, if you have Bright (or Bruner or Hammock or Shin) on your team you could be looking at the team getting a win...

[sleeper]

See my reply in the other thread for clarification Rich.

NCR's rules basically boil down to this: if you are in one of 5 unique classes, you need to get the lowest PAX time to help the team. Period. It does not matter how you finish in the class.

[fluid1]

lagunamiata said:

fluid1 said:

The example is nice to show how it works, but my hypothetical PAX in tire class, with street tires, is the exact same as Michael Bright's when he raced in BS. How is that REMOTELY even?

It is fair because you're not competing against Michael Bright in BS.

You're competing against Steve Shin, Jack McGahey, Vick French, Steve Berry... all the guys listed in the Tire section of the entry list and results.

A BS 350Z car SHOULD be quicker than a GS Sentra SE-R. Thus the Sentra gets a better multiplier.

Hell, if you have Bright (or Bruner or Hammock or Shin) on your team you could be looking at the team getting a win...

You are incorrect on so many levels it's funny now.


It is NOT fair becasue my PAX could compete against his.

[prancingdawg]

We need a celtic women's team... or Helmet Hotties team

[fluid1]

prancingdawg said:

We need a celtic women's team... or Helmet Hotties team

This is the most coherent addition to this competition in this thread.

[fluid1]

sleeper said:

See my reply in the other thread for clarification Rich.

NCR's rules basically boil down to this: if you are in one of 5 unique classes, you need to get the lowest PAX time to help the team. Period. It does not matter how you finish in the class.

And again....... Tire class gets screwed no matter who wins it.

[sleeper]

fluid1 said:

sleeper said:

See my reply in the other thread for clarification Rich.

NCR's rules basically boil down to this: if you are in one of 5 unique classes, you need to get the lowest PAX time to help the team. Period. It does not matter how you finish in the class.

And again....... Tire class gets screwed no matter who wins it.

Precisely. If we use PAX times the Tire class gets screwed. It's always been that way with Tire drivers.

[sleeper]

Here's what I'm proposing as a COMPROMISE

We do NOT use PAX times. We award points based on how each driver in 5 unique classes finishes in their respective class.

I would use the same values as our season points, however, drivers in one or two driver classes would get less points counted toward team points:

1 entry: 4 points for 1st
2 entries: 6 points for 1st, 4 points for 2nd
3 entries: 9 points for 1st, 6 points for 2nd, 4 points for 3rd

And the rest would be scored as normal.

This will prevent a team from getting an automatic advantage using drivers from one driver classes. At the same time, it allows Tire drivers to participate on an even level.

[fluid1]

sleeper said:

fluid1 said:

And again....... Tire class gets screwed no matter who wins it.

Precisely. If we use PAX times the Tire class gets screwed. It's always been that way with Tire drivers.

At least someone recognizes the facts.

You don't have to make any rule changes. Just go with whatever you want, and leave me out of it as I am not a big fan of getting screwed. Have a blast with the team 'competition'


(Modified to remove vulgarity by administrator)

[integra55]

fluid1 said:

sleeper said:

Precisely. If we use PAX times the Tire class gets screwed. It's always been that way with Tire drivers.

At least someone recognizes the facts.

You don't have to make any rule changes. Just go with whatever you want, and leave me the **** out of it as I am not a big fan of getting screwed. Have a blast with the team 'competition'

come on now this has gone on long enough.... it's a FUN thing... either join in or not, if you do join then either get some r-compounds or not.... but pleeeease stop complaining about it....

[sleeper]

Despite the "healthy" debate we've got going here (lol), I think there is still strong interest to hold a CCR Team Competition this year.

Here's what I propose. I will volunteer to manage the series. This weekend at the Test and Tune and Autox I will walk around and talk to as many drivers to get feedback. Things like, do you have a team in mind, or which points structure do you prefer.

As Dave our fearless leader recommended, the Team Competition will not officially start until Points #2. That will give everyone 2 months to form teams, and we can officially vote on this forum on which points format to use as well as other rules.

I think this idea is still a very good one, and if everyone agrees, I will continue to help make it reality.

[damnyankee]

Tony, if you don't want to play with the team thing because of the tire issue, that's fine, and we will miss you. But, I think that Steve's suggestion is the best option that we have going so far.


I agree that the Tire class does not get an even shake, however, you are the one that chooses to run in tire class. you can always come play in BS!!! ;D

[C4Shane]

BTW - and I only bring this up to explain why Tire Class is where it is at....Tire Class is a regional class only! It is not recognized at the Divisional or National levels. The only "Tire" classes at those levels are STS, STX, STU, etc where street tires are required.

This is also true for Novice classes. You join these classes regionally to enjoy competition at those specific levels. By doing so, you are getting the benefit of competing in a "PAX Class" among other Novices or others who are running with street tires. But, since these classes are not recognized at the higher levels, there is no PAX/RTP factor for them.

I will point out that my son and I competed for 4-years in Tire Class recognizing that it was a regional class (2 Class championships, 2 - 2nd, 2-3rd). It was a lot of fun to run against others who competed on the same tires they used to drive to the event.

This is provided strictly for information by a member of Team BEER. You may now return to your discussion already in progress.

[prancingdawg]

Tire class pax/rtp is what we got and that's that. You can't realistically expect the same results if you are comparing pax with your buddies in your open class as long as you're on street tires . Even street tires are unequal. You have dipsticks like me running on 340 tw all season tires against folk driving on dedicated 180s.

I'm running tire class this year for multiple reasons.

List:

I have just spent over 7 grand on kitchen appliances and countertops
I have just spent around 8 grand on stonework
Spent three fitty for a new washing machine
Spent two hunnert on lost contact lenses
Loaned son and roommate 7 grand, which have only been repaid two fitty in three months
Oh, and two and a quarter for the second day of evo school

Oh, and goto the adirondacks and Canada on vacation this year

Plus,

complained all last season how changing tires was hurting my back...


I figger this will be a good season to take the schools and see what I can do to refine my skills. Then return next season and see what the competition is like in CS.

In the meantime, a paxed class with a variety of cars in Tire class should be a better compromise than not... I may eat my words but I'm not cutthroat competition anyhow or I'd be buying some 710s and showing up for every single event. I'm always competing against myself as well as comparing how I do overall as compared to the top pro and down to the greenest novice.

My .75

[fluid1]

saabstory said:

BTW - and I only bring this up to explain why Tire Class is where it is at....Tire Class is a regional class only! It is not recognized at the Divisional or National levels. The only "Tire" classes at those levels are STS, STX, STU, etc where street tires are required.

This is also true for Novice classes. You join these classes regionally to enjoy competition at those specific levels. By doing so, you are getting the benefit of competing in a "PAX Class" among other Novices or others who are running with street tires. But, since these classes are not recognized at the higher levels, there is no PAX/RTP factor for them.

I will point out that my son and I competed for 4-years in Tire Class recognizing that it was a regional class (2 Class championships, 2 - 2nd, 2-3rd). It was a lot of fun to run against others who competed on the same tires they used to drive to the event.

This is provided strictly for information by a member of Team BEER. You may now return to your discussion already in progress.

For the thousandth time, the 350Z does not fall into a Street Tire class, otherwise I'd BE IN IT

[VpointVick]

Even though I'll apparently be getting screwed, I'll offer my services to the Subaru team on the off chance that I'll be blindingly quick one day and nobody else shows up!

I can easily see where awarding points for position in class would favor the guy running by himself in Q Stock, and really think that going off of PAX is the best bet, even if I do get "screwed".

This team competition should be just a little friendly fun. If you can't take it on the terms available, don't participate.

[prancingdawg]

Wells said. And you are the wrx wagon driver, right???

[fluid1]

vpointvick said:

If you can't take it on the terms available, don't participate.

That is the likely outcome.

[VpointVick]

prancingdawg said:

Wells said. And you are the wrx wagon driver, right???

That would be me!