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Post by ccytrader on May 21, 2008 10:55:21 GMT -5
So here is the next poll as you can see its based on seat time and the various ways to get more.
Vote early, vote often.
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Post by xeric13x on May 21, 2008 17:11:31 GMT -5
I put my vote on the endurance events since they really dont have a limited number of runs. This is a great opportunity to learn w/ a mentor or veteran auto-x'r. We can even possibly set up a go to the first of the line for people that are instructors...
I've had discussions with a few people about how auto-x'n was when we were novices as a driver and as a passenger and how everything just felt a lot faster. The more you do this, the more everything "slows down".
The issue I have w/ the schools is u have a limited number of runs.
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Post by MattP on May 21, 2008 17:40:59 GMT -5
How many runs did people typically get at the 12 hour this year? I know people were saying that there was a solution to the grid problems of last year, but I wasn't able to attend the 12 hr.
Last year at the 24 I got fewer total runs than a lot of standard local events where there was time for fun runs. I kind of prefer to try and get competition runs done around 3:30 or so, so if you need to be somewhere you can leave, and if you want more runs, you can do fun runs. Not sure which choice that would be.
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Post by xeric13x on May 21, 2008 18:04:10 GMT -5
i think my car got 21 runs. thats my car, not me...
and most of them were in the 1-2 hours
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Post by ccytrader on May 23, 2008 4:04:04 GMT -5
How many runs did people typically get at the 12 hour this year? I know people were saying that there was a solution to the grid problems of last year, but I wasn't able to attend the 12 hr. Last year at the 24 I got fewer total runs than a lot of standard local events where there was time for fun runs. I kind of prefer to try and get competition runs done around 3:30 or so, so if you need to be somewhere you can leave, and if you want more runs, you can do fun runs. Not sure which choice that would be. This years 12hr charity event I had 14 runs in the 08 before my work session at 1pm. After that I logged a few in the 03 and then we changed tires on the 08 and took 3 official runs each. So thats 20 runs for me, and roughly 20 runs for my dad. The only time we were in line as a 2 driver car was for official runs. The reason I did not add fun runs to the poll was this, CCR does not do fun runs. Most people seem to be of the same mindset that they want to see all competition runs finished by 3:00-3:30 at every event so they can leave. For me personally fun runs are of no value other than leaving some extra rubber at the site. I dont think its having more looks at the same course to improve driving but more courses to look at. Its almost like a different memory exercise when you think about it. More courses to look at provides you with more chances to see various technical and elemental situations. More runs per course simply provides the chance to memorize one situation. |
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Post by ccytrader on May 23, 2008 4:30:34 GMT -5
I walked away and realized I want to expand on this a little more before I head out to Atlanta.
People will always want to have that logical reasoning as an excuse. What I mean is you get 3 runs at an event and the instant response is 'if I had 4 runs I know I would have gotten faster' or if you get 4 runs its 'if I had 5 runs.....' Well in reality thats not how this muscle memory thing works. I bet if you took two scenarios, option one is run the same course a dozen times in a day attempting faster times and option two is take 3 run on 4 different courses you would have very different results.
With option one, your brain does not get the time to process and develop the needed wiring to make full use of everything that happened during those 12 runs.
With option two though your brain is now trying to build the wiring based on a larger span of info and different situations. So the overall techniques being tested and challenged are different.
After all the runs between the two scenarios, the person from option one would not see the same consistency going into the 4 course setup as the one from option two.
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Post by czrider on May 23, 2008 9:57:50 GMT -5
Quality of seat time is most improved by having an adequate amount of time between runs to address car details/issues and accumulate information on how to improve your run line along with observation of what the competition is doing. A hundred runs done wrongly are not any more informative than two. This is an observation from a driver that has trophied in over two hundred autocrosses of which half were firsts. Autocross courses have become much less technical and require very little memorization thus encouraging drivers try to run as many runs as possible so as to train their subconscious reflexes into reacting in place of deliberate car placement. If you only have three runs then the first one ideally will be the winning one with the second one a "go for broke" attempt and the third as insurance for the first two.
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Post by lancer360 on May 23, 2008 12:44:01 GMT -5
I agree CZrider. Practice DOES NOT make perfect runs.
Perfect Practice Makes Perfect Runs
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Post by MattP on May 23, 2008 13:43:50 GMT -5
The reason I did not add fun runs to the poll was this, CCR does not do fun runs. Most people seem to be of the same mindset that they want to see all competition runs finished by 3:00-3:30 at every event so they can leave. For me personally fun runs are of no value other than leaving some extra rubber at the site. I dont think its having more looks at the same course to improve driving but more courses to look at. Its almost like a different memory exercise when you think about it. More courses to look at provides you with more chances to see various technical and elemental situations. More runs per course simply provides the chance to memorize one situation. I didn't realize no fun runs was a CCR policy. I think fun runs are of tremendous value, especially for the new autocrosser. More time in the car on the limit makes it easier to learn car control (NOT the same thing as going around the course faster, which I'm sure you'd agree with). I'd rather new autocrossers be finding the limits of their cars on course rather than on the street between their allowed 3-4 runs per month. I agree they're less useful the more experienced one gets, but they're a great way of getting the novice 'hooked' as well as additional time for instruction. A novice gets the opportunity to ride in their own car with a faster driver and gets a goal to shoot for, an opportunity to see HOW the faster drivers are faster (and to see firsthand, it's not the faster driver's car). On the flip side, they also get the chance to have an experienced driver ride while they drive and comment on what they could do better. When I had just started, this was TREMENDOUSLY valuable for me, and definitely got me going faster earlier than I would have by myself. Sure, doing more runs doesn't help you in the 'get it done in 3 runs' category, but many (most?) autocrossers aren't to that point yet, and may never get to that point if they give up because of frustration and lack of seat time. |
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Post by trdriver on May 23, 2008 18:19:58 GMT -5
I didn't realize no fun runs was a CCR policy. . its not a CCR policy. its just worked out that way lately. |
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Post by MattP on May 23, 2008 19:59:26 GMT -5
I didn't realize no fun runs was a CCR policy. . its not a CCR policy. its just worked out that way lately. Ah, misunderstood. |
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Post by trickbrick on May 23, 2008 20:03:03 GMT -5
I agree CZrider. Practice DOES NOT make perfect runs. Perfect Practice Makes Perfect RunsWhich is why I always suggest to newbie drivers to concentrate on lines and being smooth first.... THEN gradually add speed to those correct lines. But that's not exactly related to quality of seat time, I suppose.. Just an observation.  |
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Post by trickbrick on May 23, 2008 20:11:13 GMT -5
Back on track... personally, I had a difficult time picking answers... because in my early days of autocrossing (which wasn't THAT long ago  ), I would actually ride along with a LOT of people and learned a lot by watching other people's lines. I think I learned more from that than I did from instructors riding in the car with me. But each driver learns differently, I imagine. That just worked for me. |
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Post by 1993civicsi on May 25, 2008 8:23:06 GMT -5
The only trouble I had with my response was understanding the definition of "multi-day classes." I understand the words; I've just only seen them done with Evo Schools. Regardless of the working definition, I have to go with a resounding vote for Novice Schools, far and above any of the other options listed. A decently sponsored Regional school incorporates ALL the advantages of the other options. I've attended 4 SCCA Regional schools (and Evo Phase I!) and gotten NO LESS than 20 runs at each school. (The average was around 25 runs per school.) If the "average" Solo competitior enters 10 events per year, he/she gets about 40 runs per season. One Regional Novice school gives the novice driver about a half season's worth of runs. If a new driver enters TWO (gasp!) schools, that's about a full YEARS worth of seat time! To further hit on the "perfect practice" note, these runs are instructed (the level of which depends on instructor qualification set by the sponsoring Region). Regardless, a local driver with 3+ years experience is most likely going to be faster than a noob. Keep the instructor ratio to 3:1, too. The new driver gets a TON of seat time (MINIMUM of 20...target 25 plus) WITH an experienced driver (who, hopefully has been coached on HOW to teach). Regional schools, in my opinion, are by far the best "bang for one's buck" in Solo...especially to a newer driver. BTW, I'd planned to take a school this year, too. Regional schools are a good value for ANY driver! |
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Post by ccytrader on May 27, 2008 8:27:25 GMT -5
Which is why I always suggest to newbie drivers to concentrate on lines and being smooth first.... THEN gradually add speed to those correct lines. But that's not exactly related to quality of seat time, I suppose.. Just an observation. Best post of the thread! Gold star for Aimee. Without trying to shape or distort this comment to fit my 'agenda' here this leads directly to seeing more courses, not more runs per course. Now some of us more than others can toss around numbers on trophies at events and so on, but thats not what it boils down to. In fact, it only confirms further that it has a fair amount to do with seeing more situations. As a former nationally ranked climber, professional instructor, and professional route setter I have done a fair amount of research in the area of learning curves of muscle memory. Repetition will only offer up so much in the way of future use of a skill. That is, repeating the same course over and over will only give you a fraction of the skills to translate to a new situation and environment. There will be a point where fatigue kicks in and the limits are reached which lends itself to going beyond the limits. This limit is hit much sooner than most would imagine and regardless of time between runs for assessment the wall is in place. Time between sessions is a different story though in that a well disciplined person can actually distance themselves from everything they 'learned' during the event and allow things to be worked out in the back of their mind. This is similar to reading text, you can sit down for an hour and study the material but the brain is only going to process and make full use of the first 10 minutes and last 10 minutes or so of what you read leaving the 40 minute span of information lost in space. |
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Post by fluid1 on May 27, 2008 14:58:23 GMT -5
No question for me, it's the 12/24 hour events. I've never taken a lesson, a class, a school, hell I don't even take advice.  |
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Post by fluid1 on May 27, 2008 14:59:50 GMT -5
I know what you mean about muscle memory. I swear that I could sleep and swim at those 3am before school practices.
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Post by fluid1 on May 27, 2008 15:00:32 GMT -5
Oh, one more thing that helped me get fast:
Project Gotham Racing.
PG2
Forza
Forza 2
Dead serious
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Post by xeric13x on May 27, 2008 18:50:27 GMT -5
I've logged many hours of Gran Turismo 2-4.
I know Forza has auto-x's in it.
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Post by fluid1 on May 28, 2008 10:21:41 GMT -5
Gran Turismo is not that great IMO. Bad physics..... but if you feel it helps you, then it probably does
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Evoz
New Member
Posts: 31
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Post by Evoz on Jun 21, 2008 23:47:28 GMT -5
I voted 12/24
I learned alot in the 12 hour event, a whole lot.
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), I would actually ride along with a LOT of people and learned a lot by watching other people's lines. I think I learned more from that than I did from instructors riding in the car with me.
