|
|
Post by tedebayer on Dec 22, 2008 22:37:47 GMT -5
I have had several NASA members ask me if SCCA accepts NASA TT licenses for SCCA TT events. I told them I'd check...anyone know for certain? Appreciate any help you can give me...
Thanks
Ted
|
|
|
|
Post by lagunamiata on Dec 23, 2008 8:56:35 GMT -5
SCCA accepts NASA road race licenses...
I'd say to call SCCA and ask - 800-770-2055
|
|
|
|
Post by czrider on Dec 23, 2008 9:47:01 GMT -5
As it stands right now, SCCA has only extended license equality to NASA license holders for Club Regional Racing competition. The National Club Racing office has been requested to extend that recognition to NASA's Time Trial license holders. Janet with the National CR office is going to notify me with the status on where we are going with that.
Brian Gause TTC
|
|
|
|
Post by cashflyer on Dec 26, 2008 11:30:24 GMT -5
From what I recall NASA operates a Time Trial significantly differently than SCCA.
My personal opinion is that they are different enough that SCCA should NOT accept NASA TT as a direct qualification for SCCA TT.
|
|
|
|
Post by MattP on Dec 26, 2008 12:05:25 GMT -5
Why not? The main difference with NASA TT is open passing, so the driver has been evaluated to be capable to deal with passing anywhere on the track. (The other differences concerning safety equipment aren't really germane to a licensing discussion).
In events where passing is allowed SCCA TT has controlled passing (point bys), similar to the lower NASA groups. To obtain a NASA TT license, one must go through these groups first and demonstrate good on-track behavior.
Anyone that has been deemed capable of handling an open passing situation with experience in controlled passing groups will have no problem with any of the various SCCA TT formats.
|
|
|
|
Post by pleiades on Dec 28, 2008 9:51:11 GMT -5
I'm with Matt on that!
I mean NASA TT I was on track at Road Atlanta with 36 other cars and open passing. We had more cars on track for TT than for most of the race groups. I wasn't happy with that, but point being, I'm pretty sure that if I'm qualified to do that I should be qualified to run with 3-4 cars on track and no passing.
|
|
|
|
Post by tedebayer on Dec 28, 2008 13:34:10 GMT -5
I guess we'll have to wait on TPTB .... (the powers that be) to decide.
While the ability to drive in traffic with passing and some degree of confidence and safety is a part, there are differences in rules, flags, classes, safety requirements and protocals that do differ...
... and while we are a little more TT "friendly" in the southeast to encourage growth and gain involvement, SCCA HQ may feel this is a line in the sand.
We'll wait and see.
|
|
|
|
Post by Steve Eckerich on Dec 28, 2008 15:08:28 GMT -5
And there in lies the reason SCCA will continue to get its collective A-- kicked in the TT and drivers ed market. I am much more apt to sign off someone that has plenty of track experience (including NASA TT) than someone who has only run on track by themselves. Show you know the flags and have some high speed experience and you should be able to get signed off. I will see if we can push this along a little as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by MattP on Dec 28, 2008 15:38:18 GMT -5
Agreed Steve (both of you).
It's generally not a problem to get a waiver to get a full TT license with that type of experience. In my opinion, a NASA TT license should be officially honored as a full TT license, just as a NASA Club Racing license is now honored in place of a SCCA Regional Club Racing license. You shouldn't have to know the right guy to ask to get a waiver to send into national. It should be painless and easy for the participant.
Ted, we let people out there on a novice license that could potentially have no knowledge whatsoever of flagging or SCCA classing or event protocol, etc. It's extremely short sighted not to honor such a license just because it's not from the SCCA. Things like that are what result in many people's resistance to give SCCA Time Trials and PDX a chance.
|
|
|
|
Post by tirewarmer on Dec 28, 2008 18:33:23 GMT -5
I guess we'll have to wait on TPTB .... (the powers that be) to decide. While the ability to drive in traffic with passing and some degree of confidence and safety is a part, there are differences in rules, flags, classes, safety requirements and protocals that do differ... ... and while we are a little more TT "friendly" in the southeast to encourage growth and gain involvement, SCCA HQ may feel this is a line in the sand. We'll wait and see. I really hope that the SCCA does not decide to draw a completely unneccesary line in the sand on this one. The SCCA has already decided that a NASA racing license is acceptable for club racing. It would make no rational sense at all to not accept a NASA TT license since the NASA TT program is much more developed and has much higher driver requirements than the current SCCA program. I agree that the NASA vehicle safety and driver safety equipment requirements are not on par with the SCCA at this moment, but we aren't talking about cars here, we are talking about drivers and licenses. NASA has a logical progression through four levels of HPDE before you are given a NASA TT license. In HPDE1 you run with an instructor. HPDE2 you run solo with limited passing on the straights, but under the scrutiny of an instructor and usually mixed in with HPDE1 cars. HPDE3 and HPDE4 run separately from HPDE1 and HPDE2. Passing is progressively less strict with open passing in HPDE4. You are allowed to Time Trial only after you have worked your way up through the ranks of HPDE1-4, or after a you are signed of by the Time Trial Chair after an in car "check ride." If you look at the numbers that NASA is bringing into their events, you will see pretty obviously that their HPDE/TT program is currently much more successful than the SCCA's. I hope that more regions look at the good things in the current NASA program and utilize them, instead of getting hung up on the lack of safety equipment and driver safety equipment in the vehicles. The NASA ladder of HPDE through TT is a good one, as is the structure of how they run their TT events. I was signed off for my NASA TT license this year, and was thoroughly impressed with the program and the manners of the drivers that were on track with me. I plan on running their events next year, and will be wearing all of the SCCA TT required gear and will also have an SCCA TT legal vehicle(minus arm restraints) at these events. No one in NASA prevents you from running safety gear, they just simply do not require it. Not having the safety gear in the vehicle doesn't affect the other drivers on track, only the competitor that decides to go without. More and more NASA competitors are putting rollbars in their cars and wearing driving suits etc. The SCCA can learn alot from NASA at this juncture. The NASA rules are easy to understand. The SCCA PDX/Club Trial/Track Trial/Hillclimb rules are presently very difficlut to wade through for someone like myself, nevermind a true new person to the sports. I competed in my first Time Trial in 1998 with EMRA, and I honestly have read through the SCCA rules at least ten times and am probably only confident on 90% of the rules. Currently, I would not feel comfortable putting an SCCA licensed TT driver into a NASA TT session right off the bat unless they had some experience with open passing. I would honestly do a check ride of an SCCA TT driver in HPDE3 or HPDE4 to make sure that they are comfortable in an open passing environment where you are not only passing, but being passed on the straights and in the corners. How many SCCA TT drivers would be comfortable making a pass or being passed on the outside of turn 1 at CMP? Well, that is where I made my first NASA TT pass, and it was a safe one, with the driver that was passed complimenting me on the room that I gave him after the session. More often than not, when talking with people that ran SCCA SOLO1 events years ago, I find that there is a major lacking of a true understanding of what the rules currently say. If the SCCA continues to run TT events as if they were SOLO1 events from 1975, then the program is sure to die with the number of currently available track days and other Time Trials being offered out there. I will be running SCCA TT events next year, but honesltly hope that I get more than 15 laps or so of track time, when I could be at a NASA event and get 4 to 5 twenty minute or more sessions per day. The SCCA TT program needs to evolve, or there really won't be any growth. |
|
|
|
Post by czrider on Dec 28, 2008 18:40:40 GMT -5
Looking historically at the way the SCCA National Club Racing group deals with Time Trials, it is not a question of whether or not they want to honor NASA's TT credential's, but the "getting round to-it". Since there not much activity in SCCA TTs outside of SEDiv, I am of the impression that they had not thought about it either way until I asked.
Brian Gause
|
|
|
|
Post by MattP on Dec 28, 2008 20:42:20 GMT -5
Yes, it's very frustrating that you get the 'oh, we never thought about that!' answer for many questions when dealing with TT nationally (if you get a response at all).
Did you know because of the wording of the rules that in PDX open cars with factory roll over protection require arm restraints, but do not require harnesses. Where do you mount the arm restraint to? It was suggested to us by a national official that the answer to that question is to your belt on your pants.
Who knows what surprises we'll get in the 09 rules.
Brian: Is there an official channel to go through other than the timetrials@scca.com email address?
|
|
|
|
Post by czrider on Dec 29, 2008 7:12:05 GMT -5
The most effective route to get a concern across appears to be a front door path to the Time Trial POCs and a simultaneous contact with Club Racing. That way they will need to talk to one another and and get some coordination.
Brian Gause
|
|
|
|
Post by nutdriverrighty on Dec 29, 2008 10:52:12 GMT -5
I guess that I should probably keep my mouth shut due to ignorance of the full situation, but I'm not going to. I have to take exception with a sentence in TireWarmer's post.
"No one in NASA prevents you from running safety gear, they just simply do not require it. Not having the safety gear in the vehicle doesn't affect the other drivers on track, only the competitor that decides to go without."
I club race, hillclimb, have been seen at the occasional auto-x, and spend significant time working corners, so I am VERY concerned about safey equipment. I've been in a car that caught fire. I've pulled folks out of burning cars. I've responded to most every kind of accident that there is, including in the ALMS. I commend you on exceeding the requirements set forth by the organization that you are running with. If you (the collective "you") ever have the choice between the latest go-fast goody for the car and something to save your skin, go for saving your skin. I've seen folks at track dayswith instructors in the car with them spin off to driver's right at T8 at CMP and impact the trees, I've seen folks hit the wall in track days with instructors on board drive off of T1 at Road Atlanta and impact the outside wall. I saw a car spin in the center of T1 at Road Atlanta and stall about 15 yards past the apex. He was sitting broadside IN THE LINE for nearly 30 seconds as I waved the yellow franticallly. More than one person who wasn't attentive as they should have been came through the corner MUCH faster than they should have. Oh, BTW, NONE of these were at SCCA sanctioned events.
Long diatribe short, don't think that just because you're in your street car with an instructor in the front seat with you that nothing can/will happen. Ask the poor sap who pounded dad's new WRX into the wall driver's left at T12 at Road Atlanta last year at an SCCA PDX.
|
|
