|
|
Post by cr89x on Jun 28, 2012 16:11:18 GMT -5
Something that is being tried Nationally is an additional modifier for Road Tire class, CCR's Tire class. This is an additional modifer for overall PAX results to account for not using race tires.
Junior Johnson originally came up with a modifier of .970. It did not account enough at the Evolution Shootouts. Top notch drivers all around and the only RT class cars that made it into the shootouts were by random draw.
I thought I would incorporate this into our club. I decided to go with a slightly softer .965 modifier. As we are all seeing from the Night events, this is TOO soft. Mike is currently crunching numbers to determine what that factor should be. Orginally, it was stated that this multiplier would have to be different from course to course, but it is difficult to figure it out ahead of time. We are currently working through that.
Here is my question to you membership. Do we want to have this Road Tire modifier or leave things as they were? The only thing that this affects, other than Tire competitors, is overall PAX results.
Voice your opinion. Marske, I know yours already lol.
|
|
|
|
Post by SE3P on Jun 28, 2012 16:17:45 GMT -5
You know mine as well.  |
|
|
|
Post by jprice130 on Jun 28, 2012 16:39:21 GMT -5
Forgive me AJ, but I haven't heard a whole lot about this RT* thing. Given the info you provided, I assume this multiplier would apply to all classes except Street Touring? So if your base class allows r-comps but you choose to run street tires, you can use the additional .97 (or whatever) multiplier? I'm just trying to make sure I understand.
|
|
|
|
Post by srduck on Jun 28, 2012 17:34:22 GMT -5
So if your base class allows r-comps but you choose to run street tires, you can use the additional .97 (or whatever) multiplier? I'm just trying to make sure I understand. In a nutshell, that's it |
|
|
|
Post by illbebetter on Jun 28, 2012 17:35:37 GMT -5
Joe, that is the way I understand it. As for "ST" classes that factor is already a part of their pax factor. I like the idea. It gives those of us who don't run r-comps a way to actually compete the way "ST" classes already do.
|
|
|
|
Post by srduck on Jun 28, 2012 17:44:44 GMT -5
And my opinion, since I know Kuhn's already  ........ As a tire competitor, I'm all for it. It's nice to see where I might actually be in the overall pax with a "less than optimal" car. But, at the same time, I can tell you right now that at the first night event I DID NOT drive well enough to beat Kuhn. He went on to win the Blytheville tour a few weeks later, and I got out of my car after every run bitching that I screwed something up.... yet after the re-calc I'm in #1?! HAH!! I would like to run Pro like Casino keeps trying to convince me to do, but without throwing down ridiculous money on Hoosiers that'll last maybe 30 runs (hooray zero camber) or ridiculous money on building my car towards STX.... I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell, so I drive tire class and just concern myself with class competitors usually. The PAX modifier is a bit soft, at least at Metrolina. The pavement there isn't as much of a hindrance for street tires as it is for us at ZMax. At ZMax the Hoosier guys always talk about it being the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the street tire guys are usually complaining about an overall lack of grip and the deafening sound of screeching tires the entire way around the course. Ultimately though, none of it really matters. There are no contingencies at our events.... nothing more than bragging rights to be gained. If it shakes things up a bit to make it more fun (and pisses off Marske and Kuhn in the process of course ;D) then, hey... it's worth a shot! |
|
|
|
Post by integra55 on Jun 28, 2012 18:27:52 GMT -5
Joe, that is the way I understand it. As for "ST" classes that factor is already a part of their pax factor. I like the idea. It gives those of us who don't run r-comps a way to actually compete the way "ST" classes already do. only if you give a rat's butt about PAX ;D |
|
|
|
Post by SE3P on Jun 28, 2012 18:42:28 GMT -5
My problem with it is that some of those who run classes like STR, STU..etc have a higher pax running open.
Lets look at the STR S2000. If he ran STR his pax is the normal .835. But if he ran Tire BSP, his pax time would be lower...in what is supposed to be a faster class.
Same with the STU Evo's. Normal STU pax is .841. If he bumped up to ASP with the new Tire class multiplier his new pax would be .832
It just doesn't make any sense that a new multiplier makes classes that are in fact the "next step up" for your car...STR to BSP... that you are given a lower pax time.
Last analogy...
Frank's new ASP evo with somewhere around 400hp he ran in Tire class with the same TIRES as a STU car, same suspension, more aero...etc should be faster than STU by a good bit...Yet the new pax multiplier means the STU evo has to beat the ASP evo in RAW time by a solid amount, to even consider out paxing him.
|
|
|
|
Post by ball80 on Jun 28, 2012 19:11:46 GMT -5
Or what we could do is easy. give the people like kuhn and jay who win all the time, a base .900 pax modifier regardless of class, then it helps everyone out! (well except kuhn and jay) |
|
|
|
Post by SteveCouture on Jun 28, 2012 19:26:47 GMT -5
So if you take a number that is essentially a guess and multiply it by another number that is essentially a guess you get a more accurate number? How does that work?
When I was in a position of influence (ha!) in the Detroit Region, this exact discussion came up (gee - that was over 10 years ago!). There was a strong push to use a street tire modifier to make the overall indexed results more "fair" for those who didn't want to pay for race tires. The number we used was .98. That number was derived from the only place you could actually reasonably calculate a race vs. street tire modifier - the then newish STR and STS classes which had exactly equal prep rules with the only difference being tire allowance. In 2000 STS had an PAX index of 0.783 and STR 0.810; .783/.810 = .96666 - which was rounded up to .98 (yes *8*). This proved to be a little harsh but gave the desired results - a street tire competitor could *never* finish 1st in PAX results (think about it - why should someone in an underprepared car "beat" someone who puts in the effort to fully prep to the rules?) but also gave a reasonable concession since everyone knows street tires aren't as fast as race tires.
With the gap between today's race vs street tire performance being narrower than what it was a decade ago, I can't see how a factor of .965 would do anything but push the bias in the favor of the underprepared - and I can't see why that would be a desired outcome.
|
|
|
|
Post by jprice130 on Jun 28, 2012 21:17:36 GMT -5
After reading Kuhn's post, the .97 (or .965) multiplier does seem a bit much. The ASP PAX of .863 going below the .841 STU PAX with the street tire multiplier just doesn't make sense. In fact, if you applied the multiplier to the SM PAX of .866 you'd still come out better than the STU PAX (.866 * .97 = .840).
Up until I got my BRZ I was running my WRX in Novice SM with street tires and getting waxed by the SM PAX (I learned the hard way, that a turbo upgrade with the stock suspension and street tires is not very competitive in AutoX....lol!). Having that .97 street tire multiplier definitely would've helped me feel a little better about myself, but despite the help it would've given me, I don't think it would've been right.
The .98 multiplier that Steve mentions seems to work out a little better across all the different classes when you compare the different PAX values. Using my WRX as an example:
DS: .821 * .98 = .805
STX: .822 remains .822
ESP: .848 * .98 = .831
SM: .866 * .98 = .849
That PAX progression seems to make a lot more sense than what the .97 would give.
|
|
|
|
Post by yellow CR on Jun 28, 2012 22:01:59 GMT -5
We ran a Tire PAX Modifier of .975 at the Shootout and that should be the number we use. Like Kuhn said with the modifier, a BSP tire car should not have a better PAX than an STR car. If it were .970 the PAX would be .833 on the BSP Tire car and .835 in STR. At .975 BSP Tire would have a PAX of .837 which is fine. I am good with STU and Tire ASP being both .841, since STU is a pretty tough PAX in my opinion, and probably should be lower.
|
|
|
|
Post by Frodo on Jun 28, 2012 23:00:56 GMT -5
If it means I can beat Duckworth in PAX then I'm all for it haha To be honest I haven't quite figured out completely how this PAX system works, I'm working on it though. |
|
|
|
Post by srduck on Jun 29, 2012 5:15:02 GMT -5
If it means I can beat Duckworth in PAX then I'm all for it haha To be honest I haven't quite figured out completely how this PAX system works, I'm working on it though. I get the modifier... you don't. It makes it HARDER for you to beat me in PAX |
|
|
|
Post by cr89x on Jun 29, 2012 5:23:53 GMT -5
Josh, you should have said that last night when Justin asked about it. I would have explained it more.
Yes the current number is soft, it is going to change. Kuhn gave the best break down of how bs that oops number is. Look at the pax results from both night events and you'll see that the top 15 are tire class cars except about 4. Mike and I will finish our last of our conversation today determining the final number. So, expect results to be posted this evening and the first event will be modified as well. It's not like the modifier affects finishing in class.
It seems as if the modifier is well received as long as the number is more fair.
To be clear. This modifier is only for those competing in Tire class and only affects overall PAX results for the event.
Thank you everyone for your input. By no means will I close this topic. I'm sure more could be discussed and come out of the topic.
|
|
|
|
Post by jprice130 on Jun 29, 2012 7:12:31 GMT -5
To be clear. This modifier is only for those competing in Tire class and only affects overall PAX results for the event. Just to make sure I'm clear, this modifier wouldn't be used to determine class winners in Novice or Pro? So if I wanted to run a Street Prepared car in Pro with street tires (I can dream right?), the multiplier would not be used for the Pro class rankings but would be used for the overall PAX rankings? |
|
|
|
Post by ball80 on Jun 29, 2012 7:16:17 GMT -5
Joe, You moving to pro class next event? You can't do me like that. Your the rabbit I have to chase every week.
|
|
|
|
Post by jprice130 on Jun 29, 2012 8:18:59 GMT -5
Joe, You moving to pro class next event? You can't do me like that. Your the rabbit I have to chase every week. Ha, ha! You're right Travis, it's too much fun racing against you. I guess I'll stay in Novice for a little while longer.... Honestly though, I don't think you have much to worry about with me. It looks like you and Chris are getting that Mini dialed in pretty good. I gotta get more seat time and figure out if anyone is even making some decent Street Touring parts for this BRZ yet. |
|
|
|
Post by donour on Jun 29, 2012 9:41:59 GMT -5
My $0.02.
Over the years, I've had many conversations about this issue with members from dozens of regions as well as Rick Ruth. 0.98 is about as low as you can reasonably go before you start restructuring class speed.
Another thing to consider, what happens when it rains? At .970, street tire cars are going to kill EVERYBODY.
donour
|
|
|
|
Post by donour on Jun 29, 2012 9:46:34 GMT -5
Frank's new ASP evo with somewhere around 400hp he ran in Tire class with the same TIRES as a STU car, same suspension, more aero...etc should be faster than STU by a good bit...Yet the new pax multiplier means the STU evo has to beat the ASP evo in RAW time by a solid amount, to even consider out paxing him. FWIW: those tires are not STU legal. But, you're point is well taken. I made exactly the same argument two years ago to the RM division. I bought the hankooks to prove the point and pretty much buried the usual competition...  |
|
|
|
Post by SE3P on Jun 29, 2012 10:46:23 GMT -5
To be clear. This modifier is only for those competing in Tire class and only affects overall PAX results for the event. Just to make sure I'm clear, this modifier wouldn't be used to determine class winners in Novice or Pro? So if I wanted to run a Street Prepared car in Pro with street tires (I can dream right?), the multiplier would not be used for the Pro class rankings but would be used for the overall PAX rankings? No Joe. The only class this modifier is used for is the people who run TIRE class with a T on their car. If you run Pro, or Novice. that's not Tire class. Just because someone had street tires on a car that was allowed to run Hoosiers in their class does not mean they will automatically get the multiplier unless they are running in the Tire class against the other Tire classed cars. |
|
|
|
Post by jprice130 on Jun 29, 2012 12:05:05 GMT -5
Just to make sure I'm clear, this modifier wouldn't be used to determine class winners in Novice or Pro? So if I wanted to run a Street Prepared car in Pro with street tires (I can dream right?), the multiplier would not be used for the Pro class rankings but would be used for the overall PAX rankings? No Joe. The only class this modifier is used for is the people who run TIRE class with a T on their car. If you run Pro, or Novice. that's not Tire class. Just because someone had street tires on a car that was allowed to run Hoosiers in their class does not mean they will automatically get the multiplier unless they are running in the Tire class against the other Tire classed cars. Thanks for setting me straight Mike. |
|
|
|
Post by turtle8 on Jun 29, 2012 12:54:37 GMT -5
If this new Tire multiplier is added, I would probably switch to Tire class. As it is now, running my EP car in tire class would kill me (the pax is ridiculous). Heck, somehow at Michelin my street tired car beat one of the drivers of the race tired Scirocco.
|
|
|
|
Post by yellow CR on Jun 29, 2012 13:22:32 GMT -5
Another thing to consider, what happens when it rains? At .970, street tire cars are going to kill EVERYBODY. We talked about that at the Evo Super Shootout, and came to the conclusion, with a declared rain event no Tire modifier will be used. Since Hoosier cars are now on streets or rains, they will not have any advantage, so we have no need for a modifier. FWIW: those tires are not STU legal. Does STU not have the same 140 treadwear rating as other ST classes? Hankooks are legal for my STR car and Kuhn's STX car. |
|
|
|
Post by srduck on Jun 29, 2012 13:57:39 GMT -5
FWIW: those tires are not STU legal. Does STU not have the same 140 treadwear rating as other ST classes? Hankooks are legal for my STR car and Kuhn's STX car. Too wide... AWD cars in STX/STU only get 245s |
|
|
|
Post by 05astock on Jun 29, 2012 15:48:17 GMT -5
Pax are pointless! Its used to compare 2 completely different cars and for someone in a street tire car to say"Im a faster driver than the guy on hoosiers" but the only way to do that is both people drive the same car.
Theres so many variables when comparing cars and although its probably done to the best of anyones ability, but it will never be a proven exact formula so never well everyone be pleased
|
|
|
|
Post by SE3P on Jun 29, 2012 22:58:54 GMT -5
^Go tell Rick Ruth that pax is pointless.
|
|
|
|
Post by fastblackef6868 on Jun 29, 2012 23:13:20 GMT -5
Joe, that is the way I understand it. As for "ST" classes that factor is already a part of their pax factor. I like the idea. It gives those of us who don't run r-comps a way to actually compete the way "ST" classes already do. only if you give a rat's butt about PAX ;D I'm with you Walter! Raw is all I care about! Who gives about some number that some one came up with to make the slower cars faster. Racing is about one course and the fastest car on it. I know that is not how auto x works but I'm just saying.... RAW TIME IS KING!!! |
|
|
|
Post by srduck on Jun 30, 2012 4:45:10 GMT -5
^Go tell Rick Ruth that pax is pointless. If PAX is pointless, we all need to just start driving go-karts. |
|
|
|
Post by 05astock on Jun 30, 2012 7:28:23 GMT -5
Other than the new tire class, what throphies are won based off pax. I dont see the need to cross compare classes. Yes I know solo is unique but what other style of motorsports does that. Just build a car within the limitations of your class and try to win. Because you cant put an exact number calculation on whats faster a lightweight balanced car on street tires or a heavy front wheel drive car on race tires. Racing should be about raw time against others within your class. I know there will always be pax but Ill never care. UNLESS they do the ultimate analysis with all the top cars for each class and drivers on the same course for hours of data. But thats unrealistic and until then it'll never be accurate.
|
|
........
