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Post by C4Shane on Mar 7, 2013 19:52:44 GMT -5
Hi,
I will be picking up the role left open by Ted Theodore as the CCR SEDIV TT representative. The goal is to help grow this important element of SCCA competition for CCR and the Southeast Division. SEDIV has one of the most active TT programs in the country and with two scheduled hillclimb events it offers the rare chance to run a Level 4 TT in your backyard.
In any case, if you have an interest in getting involved in TT - it isn't as hard as you think! Just ask - I started last year after 30 years of AX and it has been a great experience.
If you are experienced at TT, then I need to hear from you on how to make the program better (and get you to bring your friends!).
TT offers 4 Levels of competition that gets you on track - and at competition speeds without trading paint. These include PDX, Club Trials, Time Trials, and Hillclimbs. In most cases, you can take your autocross car and run in Level 1 and 2 events with no additional prep or specialty equipment other than what you already have. Level 3 and 4 (TT/Hillclimb) do require additional gear and car prep. However, no matter what level you choose to run, the goal is to get out on track and have fun with hours instead of minutes of seat time.
Feel free to contact me anytime at either sfindlan@aol.com or
sfindlan@hotmail.com
Thanks again and come on out!!!
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Post by oldgiracer on Mar 29, 2013 11:54:03 GMT -5
Shane: Did you have a recent conference call with national TTAC? Yes? How about sharing what was discussed with us and give us some idea of what is taking place on the national level.
Thanks!
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Post by farrout on Mar 30, 2013 20:28:10 GMT -5
Tony - The SEDIV TT Comm reps do not attend the TTAC meetings. Re TTAC, we were asked by BOD to rewrite the PDX rules. Something along the lines of:
1.Simplify and remove any irrelevant language.
2.Review the safety requirements to make sure they are not excessive and in accordance with other HPDE organizations. SCCA will not sacrifice safety, but our rules should reflect reality and be able to be enforceable.
3.Reduce, if not eliminate, as many barriers to entry as possible. We want to make it as easy as possible for new folks to participate and volunteer with us.
4.Understanding that the PDX is the first step in SCCA’s ladder to higher levels of race track activities, PDX/TT and Road Racing structures and programs should be more closely linked. Many PDX/TT events are being run in conjunction with Road Racing weekends and it should be possible for existing event managers to facilitate both events without doubling the staffing.
This is not a simple scrub the existing rules but a start over approach. Many of the rules that have been around seemingly forever and were taken as gospel that Insurance demanded them are now being challenged. We have had interesting discussions about harness age, helmet age, and rollbars. `
The current TTR for all of the TT Levels are difficult to read. There is a lot of boiler plate in there. The TTR first need to address what the driver needs to know to enter an event without making him wade thru a bunch of stuff that is irrelevant to him. Then whatever requirements a Region needs to know to safely execute a TT event should be capsulized. Somehow, we have to couple all that with a common sense approach for safety purposes.
If you were to rewrite the PDX rules, what would you recommend??
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Post by C4Shane on Mar 31, 2013 7:23:28 GMT -5
Thanks Craig for providing that response to Tony's questions! Right on the money - Make it simple to understand what is needed for car prep, driver's gear, and licensing at each level of TT, from PDX to Hillclimbs.
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Post by oldgiracer on Mar 31, 2013 18:48:47 GMT -5
Sorry, I identified the incorrect meeting. I must have misunderstood that Shane would be taking part in SEDiv TT meetings/conference calls representing CCR. Thanks, Craig for the answer and outline for what is taking place in the TT world. We older, more cautious folks are concerned that the SCCA does not become NASA-ized and thus threaten the strength of our club. I'm hopeful that cooler heads will prevail and that the word of reason will keep us strong and informed. My thanks to all who are working to keep our program strong and viable.
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Post by heavy85 on Mar 31, 2013 23:31:56 GMT -5
Sorry, I identified the incorrect meeting. I must have misunderstood that Shane would be taking part in SEDiv TT meetings/conference calls representing CCR. Thanks, Craig for the answer and outline for what is taking place in the TT world. We older, more cautious folks are concerned that the SCCA does not become NASA-ized and thus threaten the strength of our club. I'm hopeful that cooler heads will prevail and that the word of reason will keep us strong and informed. My thanks to all who are working to keep our program strong and viable. Not trying to start something as I have no dog in the fight but I went the NASA route because frankly I couldnt figure out the PDX/TT system. Classes include most autox plus some or most RR classes plus some super secret ones (that I happen to run - SU). Just way to complex and scattered with too many classes for me. Although I live in the midwest I run the Dragon which being a hill climb is the only reason. You all seem like nice folks but the SCCA setup is not attractive to outsiders IME. Something else to consider which makes NASA weekends really fun is at least around here they run HPDE/TT/W-W all on the same days. This makes it so there is always action to watch with large car counts and much cool race cars to drool over. Cameron |
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Post by czrider on Apr 1, 2013 6:52:36 GMT -5
 In the South, NASA's Track events for street vehicles have historically generated a substantial amount of vehicle carnage. That is the consequence that organizers for SCCA events are trying to avoid. NASA's one size fits five classing has never appealed to me because of the disparity between production options and penalties levied on classification for cars up fitting to those same components.
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Post by tedebayer on Apr 1, 2013 7:25:24 GMT -5
Something else to consider which makes NASA weekends really fun is at least around here they run HPDE/TT/W-W all on the same days. This makes it so there is always action to watch with large car counts and much cool race cars to drool over. Cameron Thanks for input Cameron... you are right about complexity and we are working to improve that. Frankly, as an event manager, I tend to be focused on event breaking even, safety and other areas... and it is a very sound observation that having all groups run on same day is more appealing to new comers. We have a responsibility to region to make our events financially solid. In the SE, have not been able to do PDX/CT/TT/Road Race on same day and make numbers work and let everyone have good seat time. Part of that comes from having so many classes and there are efforts to change that as well. Bear with us...we are UNDER CONSTRUCTION. We have great people, super events and we plan on raising the bar. We appreciate you being a part! See you at the Dragon man! I am seeing a lot of new cars, drivers and spectators coming this year. Thanks! |
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Post by heavy85 on Apr 1, 2013 18:32:44 GMT -5
See you at the Dragon man! I am seeing a lot of new cars, drivers and spectators coming this year. Thanks! Cant wait and wouldnt miss it. The June Dragon is etched in stone on my schedule. |
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Post by farrout on Apr 2, 2013 6:53:29 GMT -5
interesting comments about too many classes and SU.
On our side, we think that we can make a place for any car to run. We do that regularly.
If we had less classes, then would we be too restrictive??
SU is one of those classes which we created to fit about any car.
We are probably not advertising ourselves too well in that you can ask Ted or myself about anyting and we can usually fix you up. Does the SEDIV TT website do enough? What can we do better??
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Post by heavy85 on Apr 2, 2013 10:50:34 GMT -5
interesting comments about too many classes and SU. On our side, we think that we can make a place for any car to run. We do that regularly. If we had less classes, then would we be too restrictive?? SU is one of those classes which we created to fit about any car. We are probably not advertising ourselves too well in that you can ask Ted or myself about anyting and we can usually fix you up. Does the SEDIV TT website do enough? What can we do better?? Im probably biased but SU is a great class. Its relatively open and accomodates a wide range of creations. It has also been one of the better attended classes at the Dragon. Most SCCA classes are very restricted and prescribed whats allowed. This means you really need to pick the right car and class to be competitive. For insiders this may be fine but as an outsider looking in this is a barrier to entry IMHO. Makes it harder or those who are trying to make do with the car they already have. For example you want to get in and have a car you previously added a cam to ..... which puts an otherwise stock car into a Prep class which since there isnt one you would have to be bumped to a fast RR class which would need cage etc etc and it spirals. Without the SEDIV regional SU class I couldnt play for this same reason as I have a motor swap and only a roll bar. You and Ted and others have been great to work with so it seems the right people are in place but the car classing system is a bit hard for newcomers. Hill climb had been a bucket list item for a long time but looking at the SCCA site it didnt look possible. Now that I have inside contacts it has happened with my first Dragon last year and you all have been very responsive. I havent looked at this in a couple years so maybe its much better now. However, when I started track events 4 or 5 years ago I couldnt get from the SCCA web site to TT car classifications and gave up. |
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Post by C4Shane on Apr 2, 2013 16:54:47 GMT -5
Sorry, I identified the incorrect meeting. I must have misunderstood that Shane would be taking part in SEDiv TT meetings/conference calls representing CCR. Thanks, Craig for the answer and outline for what is taking place in the TT world. We older, more cautious folks are concerned that the SCCA does not become NASA-ized and thus threaten the strength of our club. I'm hopeful that cooler heads will prevail and that the word of reason will keep us strong and informed. My thanks to all who are working to keep our program strong and viable. Tony, I do take part in the SEDIV TT meeting/calls, but not the national TTAC meeting - which I believe is what you were asking. We did have a call and as this was my first, I don't know if there will be minutes or anything provided officially. Craig gave you an idea of our marching orders from SCCA at the national level. We discussed some items to improve the image and to promote TT. We know the growth of the sport will likely be from the Solo ranks - and that PDX is an entry point, as are Club Trials. But as Craig indicated - we need the rules to discuss car requirements and classes without making someone believe it has to be a club racer built to the GCR (a common misconception). In fact, you can compete in level 1 and 2 in your existing street car in most cases. Yes, above those levels requires car prep - and it should! We also discussed a logo for TT and some possible future events - I shared some ideas provided to me by CCR members on possible events. This year looks solid - with 7 events (the last TGPR is a double TT), but that doesnt mean we can't squeeze in more - but it takes participation of competitors and participation of folks willing to work and put these on (the last part are my words). Tony - you discussed safety and I can assure you that everyone on the call understood we need to make it easier to understand the TT rules for all levels - but also to maintain safety. As you and I discussed over dinner, I am a grand-dad who happens to drive a 160mph rocking chair. My grandkids would be less than thrilled if I broke the car (they like to make motor noises in it) or myself. |
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Post by z3elda on Apr 2, 2013 22:03:00 GMT -5
A very relavent subject for me, as a friend and I stand at the beginning of a TT car build. Even after reading the Solo Street Prepared rules and the GCR thoroughly, I am still left scratching my head a bit. We don't want to build a mis-fit car that gets stuck in a catch-all class because we overbuilt by mistake. As a result, we may actually build 2 cars. One targeted strictly at the Street Prepared rules that we can SOLO and TT, and another long-term project: An "anything goes" monster that will defy logic and common sense ;-)
IMO - the TT rule book should stand alone, sort of like the SOLO rules (mostly) do. Yes, there may be alot of duplication of info published elsewhere, but jumping between rule-sets is just confusing. Vehicle and personal Safety equipment should also be spelled out - both mandatory and optional.
I applaud the efforts at simplifying but not compromising the licensing requirements. On that front, the Hillclimb Novice program is an AWESOME idea, and I hope to take advantage of that at some point.
I would suggest to national another license category: "Limited TT" or "Open Road TT", aimed at Hillclimb and similar events not necessarily on a hill. Events where cars are not in interaction with each other like in a Road Course situation. This is where my personal interest lies. For example, if someone ran 3 or 4 Hillclimb events successfully on a novice permit, they would qualify for this license. Maybe one of those qualifying events could be satisfied by a full season of SOLO competition, since demonstration of car control skill is important.
Just my 2 cents.
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Post by markt on Apr 3, 2013 8:33:56 GMT -5
Build your car to autocross Street Prep standards, add 4-Point Roll Bar, fire bottle w/metal hardware, 5-point harness and deactivate the airbag...the other stuff is YOUR safety gear. don't get caught up in "suggested" improvements only MUST DO stuff
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Post by farrout on Apr 3, 2013 19:10:35 GMT -5
IMO - the TT rule book should stand alone, sort of like the SOLO rules (mostly) do. Yes, there may be alot of duplication of info published elsewhere, but jumping between rule-sets is just confusing. Vehicle and personal Safety equipment should also be spelled out - both mandatory and optional. I would suggest to national another license category: "Limited TT" or "Open Road TT", aimed at Hillclimb and similar events not necessarily on a hill. Events where cars are not in interaction with each other like in a Road Course situation. This is where my personal interest lies. For example, if someone ran 3 or 4 Hillclimb events successfully on a novice permit, they would qualify for this license. Maybe one of those qualifying events could be satisfied by a full season of SOLO competition, since demonstration of car control skill is important. . COuple of comments. We will probably always reference the GCR since we allow race cars built to the GCR to compete in TT. There are a lot of older GCR cars available that are cheaper to buy than build from scratch. We can add to the SEDIV car classes rather easily. Like the SU category. The Street prepared basically includes all the basic street driven SOLO cars. But, what specifically would you suggest? Adding HC to the 3 events to qualify sounds like a good idea. Personally, I think a HC is more like a high speed SOLO without any error margin. But track driving takes entirely different steering and braking inputs than a SOLO. When I first came to Alabama and ran SOLO, the SOLO guys told me I was a track driver because of the way I drove. I learned to adjust my driving technique between SOLO and the Track. |
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Post by z3elda on Apr 3, 2013 23:50:24 GMT -5
What I hope to bring to the discussion is my perspective of being a noob, and the view is a bit cloudy to me. I have learned alot already by working the Dragon events, along with alot of reading. I don't necessarily think we need more classes, just better explanations of what we already have.. Maybe we need a summary booklet that outlines the key items for someone getting started. What the basic driver licensing paths are, and what needs to be done to make a car TT ready.
Anything we can do to simplify both the information and the process will help immensely.
Mark- thanks for that advice - I should probably follow it. LOL.
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In the South, NASA's Track events for street vehicles have historically generated a substantial amount of vehicle carnage. That is the consequence that organizers for SCCA events are trying to avoid. NASA's one size fits five classing has never appealed to me because of the disparity between production options and penalties levied on classification for cars up fitting to those same components. 
