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Post by cr89x on Apr 11, 2013 15:43:16 GMT -5
Weigh your opinion in here. I'm keeping my opening brief.
Conversation has surfaced about allowing tire class competitors in other pax classes. Example a stock car on street tires in Pro gets base pax factor plus .98 street tire modifier. Same would go if you have an SP, or other class, car in any pax class such as Pro, Intermediate. I would exclude Novice seen as they are rarely seen on R Comps.
Let the BS begin
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Post by jprice130 on Apr 11, 2013 16:39:09 GMT -5
I guess I'll start and say that I'm not crazy about this. Allowing this .98 RT multiplier in Intermediate and Pro kind of takes away from what the Tire class was setup for. To me it just doesn't make sense to have a PAX based Tire class AND implement a RT multiplier in our PAX based Pro and Intermediate classes. It also doesn't seem right to put in place after we've already run a couple events.
Keep in mind that I would benefit greatly from this RT multiplier if it were implemented, so my opinion is not based on what would help me personally.
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Post by SE3P on Apr 11, 2013 17:12:54 GMT -5
Agreed with Joe. Don't do it.
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rapidbutterfly
Junior Member
una donna che conosce il suo posto
Posts: 94 
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Post by rapidbutterfly on Apr 11, 2013 17:21:04 GMT -5
yeah, i have no business atm in I or P (although I guess they could do this in L too, which I do run), so the only effect for me relates to the team competition fun / silliness that involves overall pax. But I think it's kind of a bad / borderline absurd idea. You want to run SP? You're a pro? you can't afford rains if you really think it makes that much difference? you can't just bolt on some street tires and run ST(n) for that event (assuming a moderate SP prep that would allow ST legality)? I mean the PAX numbers for classes were allegedly developed taking into account many, many results from events all over the country....I have a sneaking suspicion it may have rained at some of the events used to develop the national pax indices....
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Post by integra55 on Apr 11, 2013 19:10:03 GMT -5
FWIW I'm against it ... just like I'm against giving ST classed cars an extra multiplier when running in the dry .... but I don't run P or I ... so my opinion really doesn't/shouldn't count/matter
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Post by srduck on Apr 11, 2013 19:23:08 GMT -5
ST wouldn't get a multiplier in the dry because ST cars are already classed for having street tires.
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Post by em99sport on Apr 11, 2013 20:59:42 GMT -5
"Keep it simple, keep it fun." ;D
Seriously, though -- it's one thing to allow RT* classes in indexed classes, and a whole different thing altogether to make concessions for moderately prepped *SP and beyond cars. Tire class, as it exists now, serves those cars fine.
So, since one can run RT at national-level events, how about allowing them in Intermediate and Pro, and restricting Tire to SP, SM, P, M cars?
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cwguy5
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by cwguy5 on Apr 11, 2013 22:03:41 GMT -5
i will happily run under whatever rules are decided upon. here are my two cents though: i am new to the sport but the RT proposal does not make much sense to me. adding a "fix" to solve something that can be relatively easily remedied within the current rules seems overly complicated on the face. also, what is the definition of a rain day? what about rapidly changing weather conditions between run groups? this will introduce some grey areas but i am not going to have to deal with that so it is not my concern.
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Post by integra55 on Apr 12, 2013 5:37:12 GMT -5
ST wouldn't get a multiplier in the dry because ST cars are already classed for having street tires. I wasn't asking for it.. just referring to Frodo's ask for earlier in another thread this: (So by the rationale of allowing classes that run R-Comps/Slicks an additional modifier during wet events all ST classes should be allowed the same modifier during dry events. Fair is fair. Joshua Elks, Tri-Pod Chief and Torque Monster Tire Warmer) |
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Post by drum3 on Apr 12, 2013 6:41:09 GMT -5
I think applying that modifier to TIRE class when you run the Pax results would be awesome for those guys to see where they are in PAX but your Tire Class serves the competition fine, no need in P or I ....
.although I would run ProCSPTire if you allow the modifier.
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Post by jprice130 on Apr 12, 2013 7:28:56 GMT -5
I think applying that modifier to TIRE class when you run the Pax results would be awesome for those guys to see where they are in PAX but your Tire Class serves the competition fine, no need in P or I .... I agree with this. I thought it was great to have the .98 multiplier added to the overall PAX results for the Tire class guys last year. I think it would be nice to bring it back again this season regardless of the decision to add/not add this multiplier to Pro or Intermediate. |
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Post by 05astock on Apr 12, 2013 7:48:28 GMT -5
"Keep it simple, keep it fun." ;D Seriously, though -- it's one thing to allow RT* classes in indexed classes, and a whole different thing altogether to make concessions for moderately prepped *SP and beyond cars. Tire class, as it exists now, serves those cars fine. So, since one can run RT at national-level events, how about allowing them in Intermediate and Pro, and restricting Tire to SP, SM, P, M cars? My thoughts exactly. Rt* is a class by its self at the national level, so why isn't it being treated like one? Think of the RT* with its pax included as a class, not a pax with in a pax. As for the crazy st* wet/dry, SP, P, M classes should run Tire class or just face the disadvantage in pro/ intermediate and if at the end of the day they want to multiply their time by .98 and say they got first then cool. Or run tire class, because if we allow this then next year we will start hear about "tune pax" any car in SP that doesn't have a full potential tune gets a multiplier of .95 |
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Post by srduck on Apr 12, 2013 7:55:42 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly. Rt* is a class by its self at the national level, so why isn't it being treated like one? Think of the RT* with its pax included as a class, not a pax with in a pax. As for the crazy st* wet/dry, SP, P, M classes should run Tire class or just face the disadvantage in pro/ intermediate and if at the end of the day they want to multiply their time by .98 and say they got first then cool. Or run tire class, because if we allow this then next year we will start hear about "tune pax" any car in SP that doesn't have a full potential tune gets a multiplier of .95 You haven't kept up with the Stock->Street and SP/LP debacle have you? SP will have a "light prep" class with it next year for what is currently the Stock Class and we'll be on street tires. Next year we'll start to hear about heads exploding from PAX  |
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Post by integra55 on Apr 12, 2013 8:07:46 GMT -5
maybe ... this is after all just a proposal ... bet a lot of that proposal won't make it into the rules ... at least not immediately .... maybe in yrs down the road
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Post by jprice130 on Apr 12, 2013 8:10:39 GMT -5
"Keep it simple, keep it fun." ;D Seriously, though -- it's one thing to allow RT* classes in indexed classes, and a whole different thing altogether to make concessions for moderately prepped *SP and beyond cars. Tire class, as it exists now, serves those cars fine. So, since one can run RT at national-level events, how about allowing them in Intermediate and Pro, and restricting Tire to SP, SM, P, M cars? My thoughts exactly. Rt* is a class by its self at the national level, so why isn't it being treated like one? Think of the RT* with its pax included as a class, not a pax with in a pax. As for the crazy st* wet/dry, SP, P, M classes should run Tire class or just face the disadvantage in pro/ intermediate and if at the end of the day they want to multiply their time by .98 and say they got first then cool. Or run tire class, because if we allow this then next year we will start hear about "tune pax" any car in SP that doesn't have a full potential tune gets a multiplier of .95 Adam, I'd totally agree with you and John if we didn't already have a Tire class for non-Street Touring classes. If we were starting the season fresh, then we could just have the RT classes and let them run in Pro and Intermediate and the Tire class could serve all the other Street Prepared and above classes. However, since we've already run a couple events and also given that the SCCA is planning some kind of Stock/Street shake-up, I think it's best to leave this alone and re-evaluate before next season. |
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Post by Frodo on Apr 12, 2013 8:37:27 GMT -5
I say don't fix what isn't broken. We've run two events so far without this new-found 'rule'. From what I saw at Black Lake it was a cushion for those who didn't want to have to fight the weather conditions all that much. We all prefer a dry event, but that doesn't mean you should get an extra PAX rating because you chose a class that requires more car prep and racing tires to be successful in. It's like penalizing those of use who choose/are forced to run ST classes for whatever reasons. Because it's wet out will let you run this extra multiplier because you either A. don't want to switch to wet tires (and yes I heard of some people saying this at Black Lake) or B. you're mad that the weather didn't favor you that day. But on the flipside Intermediate and Pro classes during a dry event don't give this modifier to ST and cars to 'even' out the playing field. This is a seasonal points sport. Some events you're going to be at a disadvantage due to weather and some you won't. And that will apply to everyone there. Just make the most of what you have w/o trying to fish for extra cushioning.
If you're going to some to run it, then you need to allow all to run it somehow. But the system we have in place works. So there's no need to to tinker or fix it.
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Post by 05astock on Apr 12, 2013 8:44:57 GMT -5
No I'm tracking, and I brought up RT* being used in pro at the end of last year, so I assumed it was being treated like a normal stock class. Yes the light prep and all will be much more confusing and I don't really like it, But if its implemented its really no more or less math to run in pro class than tire class, and that's all they really are doing is making a giant tire pax for all classes instead of stock(street). I think it's crappy that they are trying to please everyone in every class. Class rules should be set, and if you don't build to the rule set then don't complain or expect more when you're not as fast as someone. But why are we singling it down to just tires while we are at it, if you don't run MCS, MOTON, koni or AST then you get a pax because they cost more than BC's. coil overs are more expensive than tires and since we are keeping the cost of solo down.......?
Joe I agree wait until the rules are set, but it's good to be prepared as well.
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Post by srduck on Apr 12, 2013 9:02:41 GMT -5
But on the flipside Intermediate and Pro classes during a dry event don't give this modifier to ST and cars to 'even' out the playing field. This is a seasonal points sport. They don't give you an additional modifier in the dry because it's already built in. The PAX system is built and balanced around stock cars running R comps and ST cars running street tires. The argument is that when conditions won't allow Stock to run R-comps... the only thing that actually gives them an advantage... there should be a way to level out the disadvantage that puts them at. SCR ran the tire pax modifier for Pro because Marty Bull had been running Tire class for several years with almost no competition and wanted a larger field to run with. Seeing it available, some people took it because they couldn't run their R-comps in the rain down there, so why not take a softer PAX? If we want to go back and strip out the tire modifiers from Black Lake, I'm okay with that. I don't think it changes the results much if at all. And I'll agree that now that the season has started, it's too late to make changes to our ruleset. But asking for an additional modifier for ST* in the dry is like going to a place that sells Hamburgers for $4 and Cheeseburgers for $4.50... ordering a hamburger... and demanding an additional $.50 be taken off the price because you're not ordering cheese. That's already built into the pricing, or in our case, the PAX. See you guys tomorrow. I'll be in the Audi in DS with street tires and no PAX modifier  |
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Post by gxpmatt on Apr 12, 2013 9:05:00 GMT -5
I don't think there would be a point to having a street tire class if that happened... Personally, I would just move to Intermediate. Not saying I wouldn't mind running in Int, but I'd be pretty far back in points!
However, since stock is most likely moving to street tires next year it would make sense to get rid of Tire class for next season and allow higher prep cars to run a multiplier for Int/Pro.
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Post by integra55 on Apr 12, 2013 11:13:46 GMT -5
But on the flipside Intermediate and Pro classes during a dry event don't give this modifier to ST and cars to 'even' out the playing field. This is a seasonal points sport. They don't give you an additional modifier in the dry because it's already built in. The PAX system is built and balanced around stock cars running R comps and ST cars running street tires. The argument is that when conditions won't allow Stock to run R-comps... the only thing that actually gives them an advantage... there should be a way to level out the disadvantage that puts them at. SCR ran the tire pax modifier for Pro because Marty Bull had been running Tire class for several years with almost no competition and wanted a larger field to run with. Seeing it available, some people took it because they couldn't run their R-comps in the rain down there, so why not take a softer PAX? If we want to go back and strip out the tire modifiers from Black Lake, I'm okay with that. I don't think it changes the results much if at all. And I'll agree that now that the season has started, it's too late to make changes to our ruleset. But asking for an additional modifier for ST* in the dry is like going to a place that sells Hamburgers for $4 and Cheeseburgers for $4.50... ordering a hamburger... and demanding an additional $.50 be taken off the price because you're not ordering cheese. That's already built into the pricing, or in our case, the PAX. See you guys tomorrow. I'll be in the Audi in DS with street tires and no PAX modifier I don't know if Joshua is pulling your leg or not... but as for Stock, SP, SM ... etc being at a disadvantage in the wet, it's just not so ... those are more/much more highly prepped classes ( not Stock) than ST ... but they all ( including Stock) can run the Hoosier wets... those tires, so I've been told, literally defy physics in their ability to make a wet track allbut the same as dry .... and by the way the ST cars can't use those tires anymore than they can the A6's ... yes the typical ST tire is better in the rain than the A6 ... but nowhere near as good as the H2O .... the higher prepped classes are also spendyer classes .. the H2O is just one more expense |
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rapidbutterfly
Junior Member
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Posts: 94
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Post by rapidbutterfly on Apr 12, 2013 12:45:01 GMT -5
this. yes the typical ST tire is better in the rain than the A6 ... but nowhere near as good as the H2O .... the higher prepped classes are also spendyer classes .. the H2O is just one more expense |
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Post by em99sport on Apr 12, 2013 19:16:34 GMT -5
But asking for an additional modifier for ST* in the dry is like going to a place that sells Hamburgers for $4 and Cheeseburgers for $4.50... ordering a hamburger... and demanding an additional $.50 be taken off the price because you're not ordering cheese. ;D Got a solid laugh out of this. Thanks for that. I agree on this being a poor timing to make changes (mid-year), Hoosier wets being a fair counterpoint to running RT* during rainy events, and the potential to flip flop between stock and RT being a crutch of sorts. However, I can't overlook my original point of RT being a nationally recognized class (albeit provisional), hence the suggestion to accommodate it in I and P classes. As an ST guy in Pro now, I obviously don't stand to benefit from that proposal, so I'm simply attempting objectivity here. |
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Post by lilgunny on Apr 12, 2013 19:46:19 GMT -5
yup...nobody can beat a well prepped car on Hoosier wets while running street tires...never happen...
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Post by drum3 on Apr 12, 2013 19:53:02 GMT -5
I don't know if Joshua is pulling your leg or not... but as for Stock, SP, SM ... etc being at a disadvantage in the wet, it's just not so ... those are more/much more highly prepped classes ( not Stock) than ST ... but they all ( including Stock) can run the Hoosier wets... those tires, so I've been told, literally defy physics in their ability to make a wet track allbut the same as dry .... and by the way the ST cars can't use those tires anymore than they can the A6's ... yes the typical ST tire is better in the rain than the A6 ... but nowhere near as good as the H2O .... the higher prepped classes are also spendyer classes .. the H2O is just one more expense Actually the Toyo R1R and Continental Conti Sport Contact DSW both have out performed the Hoosier wet in several magazine and TireRack tests in the damp and standing water . Rcomp classes are at a disadvantage vs ST classes in the wet (and extreme cold) but thats just part of the game . Everyone needs to just drive . |
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Post by drum3 on Apr 12, 2013 19:54:15 GMT -5
yup...nobody can beat a well prepped car on Hoosier wets while running street tires...never happen... never ever !! |
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Apr 12, 2013 20:26:36 GMT -5
But why are we singling it down to just tires while we are at it, if you don't run MCS, MOTON, koni or AST then you get a pax because they cost more than BC's. coil overs are more expensive than tires and since we are keeping the cost of solo down.......? NOW you're talking! In addition to Novice and Pro and Inter and Tire and Ladies, we can add Underprepared. Start with the Pax factor, then add the factors that meet your level of underpreparedness: 0.98 because I didn't buy rain tires, 0.97 because my car is not down to minimum weight, 0.88 because my engine is stock in a prep class, 0.96 because I am over 50 and can't driver worth, well, just can't drive... Multiply it all out, and put the factor on the side of the car as part of the class, like a bracket-racer dial-in. My XP car would run in class XPU-0.50 (That's XP, Underprepared, Half-Fast.) |
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Post by soloracer on Apr 12, 2013 23:12:26 GMT -5
But why are we singling it down to just tires while we are at it, if you don't run MCS, MOTON, koni or AST then you get a pax because they cost more than BC's. coil overs are more expensive than tires and since we are keeping the cost of solo down.......? NOW you're talking! In addition to Novice and Pro and Inter and Tire and Ladies, we can add Underprepared. Start with the Pax factor, then add the factors that meet your level of underpreparedness: 0.98 because I didn't buy rain tires, 0.97 because my car is not down to minimum weight, 0.88 because my engine is stock in a prep class, 0.96 because I am over 50 and can't driver worth, well, just can't drive... Multiply it all out, and put the factor on the side of the car as part of the class, like a bracket-racer dial-in. My XP car would run in class XPU-0.50 (That's XP, Underprepared, Half-Fast.) Too funny! this is why i run G/P, i build a car to class rules. No modifiers. And like this weekend , if i bring a car prepped to H/S to run in G/P i expect to lose. |
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Post by drum3 on Apr 13, 2013 4:41:02 GMT -5
You guys sound like NASAs classing gurus
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Post by philip1 on Apr 13, 2013 16:34:32 GMT -5
If you keep adding classed, modifiers, and addendum's the rule book will look like the tax code. the less rules there are the easier they are to enforce, nothing sucks more than sifting through thousands of pages to find one obscure ruling that voids a protest. Keep It Simple Stupid!
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Post by srduck on Apr 13, 2013 20:59:49 GMT -5
All day, in person, I heard people who wanted to be able to run RT classes in Pro/Intermediate.... yet on here it's nothing but people complaining about tire PAX. Well... as it turns out.... based on today's results, I was in 3rd place with or without the tire modifier. HOORAY! All I take from that is that I should have driven faster
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