The Lane Industries Racing Gran Prix

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Triad Sports Car Club is Proud to announce the Lane Industries Racing Gran Prix , at LJVM Coliseum on May 19 . Our Sponsor , Lane Industries Racing is a full service engine , fabrication and race prep shop located just West of Winston-Salem off 421 in Yadkinville, NC and will be on site to answer questions and do some random drawing give-aways ! Come on out and Test your skill against the best drivers in the Carolinas and surrounding areas . Registration can be found here :
events.auto-x.com/event/detail/86/
And visit our Sponsor here:
www.laneindustriesracing.com/

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Lane Industries Racing will be awarding $20 LIR Gift Certificates to the Top Pax Competitor in Stock , Street Touring , Street Prepared , Modified , Prepared , Pro and Ladies . Certificates will be good for Services at Lane Industries Racing !!!!
Lane Industries Racing also has plans for EVEN MORE Give aways !!

[yellow CR]

I may need a ride for this event. If anyone has a Pro Class competitive RWD or AWD car that I can drive, let me know. Hopefully I will be getting the S fixed and I won't have it.

[CoolGuy094]

Afraid I am ducking out of this one too; and I was really looking forward to that $20 gift card for top PAX in Modified! Guess I'll give someone else a go at it . Sorry to my teammates.

[CoolGuy094]

Apparently you guys do better without me... Licursi in 3rd and Sean grabbing the top spot in B bracket! 57 points towards the cup and only 2 drivers from the team attending the event. Ridiculous. Nice job.

[PinkBimmer]

Team DysFUNctional still took down team cup for the day.... but ya did awesome for 2 drivers and we had 4.... congrats 2 weeks in a row of Team Topless and DysFUNctional being so close and taking top spots

[rapidbutterfly]

We only had two also. Have to figure out how we did (I guess we got 13th and 71st).

One small anomaly to observe, granted it's just the solo cup, BUT: TSCC was using the .tir pax modifier on top of regular pax, right? So doesn't that skew the results for TSCC events as compared to CCR? (not that there's all that much riding on it, just saying)

[axex]

Yeaaa... if I hadn't hit so many cones I would've been pretty close to top of C bracket I didn't realize I DNF'd on my fastest lap (missed one of the cones on the first turn), that's disappointing. Oh well, at least we get a few drops. I won't be at Groves on the 9th, so one of yous better plow corners and murder cones in my absense ;D

[CoolGuy094]

Mina - Last I heard CCR was using the tire pax modifier for competitors running in Tire class as well. There was a big hullabaloo concerning members of Pro using the tire pax modifier which I'm not sure if that was ever resolved... but CCR definitely *should* be using the tire pax modifier for those competitors registered in Tire.

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May 20, 2013 13:58:29 GMT -5 rapidbutterfly said:

We only had two also. Have to figure out how we did (I guess we got 13th and 71st).

One small anomaly to observe, granted it's just the solo cup, BUT: TSCC was using the .tir pax modifier on top of regular pax, right? So doesn't that skew the results for TSCC events as compared to CCR? (not that there's all that much riding on it, just saying)

Nope ,,we dont use any Tir Pax modifier at all .
our TIR class is a Pax class but it just includes the standard class Pax , no modifier .

[rapidbutterfly]

Anthony, I don't think that SS has a .837 pax, nor do I think CS has a .813 PAX. That's why I think there is a tire modifier at play. Unless you all changed the results since the ones I cut and pasted.

Andy, that's cool, I obvs should have been listening more closely.

one more edit to note in passing, Andy, that the last two CCR events don't appear to have used the .tir modifier, again in the versions I've clipped to my notebooks.

[drum3]

hmmm , as a Club we voted specifically not to use the RT modifier . That must be written into the new Axware program.

[srduck]

Alright I'm holding off on the solo cup stuff until you guys figure out tire pax and get Anthony's ES reclass fixed.

[yellow CR]

Tire class should have the modifier.

And I am also fine with a modifier for Pro / Inter Class as well. Just not at a rain event. The modifier is fair in dry conditions.

We had a lot of discussion at last years Evo Shootout at zMax about it, after Guinny was beating multi time National Champion Sam Strano. And the conclusion was it is unfair in the rain to give a modifier to street tires.

[rapidbutterfly]

The proposal is that any non ST class can get the tire modifier, or just stock?

[CoolGuy094]

ST is already a "tire" pax, so they can not get the additional pax modifier, nor can they register/participate in the Tire index.

[rapidbutterfly]

right, is why I said any non ST class.

Doing the math on a "T" modifier (assume it is 0.98) for ASP or SM is...fun. My car as a fully prepped ASP car - unlimited wheel width, unlimited tire width, engine overbore, boost mods, along with the rest of the SP allowances, but on Rivals or DII's - would only be expected to run what, .2 quicker on a 60 second course? Forgive me, but that's just absurd. Maybe I made a math error.

[CoolGuy094]

60.0 sec * 0.98 = 58.8 sec

60.0 sec - 58.8 sec = 1.2 sec

I think you did make a math error

[rapidbutterfly]

I am the first to admit I am mathematically challenged. But let me see if I can at least show my work and then you folks can show me the error:

STU pax: .846

60 * .846 = 50.76 pax time

ASP pax: .866
60 * .866 = 51.96 pax time (no Tire modifier) - so the ASP car on R comps should be 1.2 seconds quicker than mine on a 60 second course.

51.96 (ASP result) *. 98 (tire) = 50.92

50.92 - 50.76 = .16

or, in the alternative, take the ASP pax and multiply by .98
.866 * .98 = .8486, call it .849

60 * .849 = 50.94

50.94 - 50.76 = .18


So okay, I screwed up and I am too dumb to see it - not the first time and won't be the last - but where is the error?

Triad gave T-SS a .837 pax this weekend, so I mean - what am I missing?

[matthugie]

As one someone who runs tire class, thus far there has been no modifier for CCR, but there is a modifier for TSCC. If you look at the PAX factors for myslef (Matt Hugenschmidt) and Mike Shields, we both are in SM cars, but I run in tire class and have a different PAX. It probably is built into the software, but it's definitely there.

[rapidbutterfly]

I'd say tscc is using a. 975 tire modifier - even more generous than my example above.

Using tscc numbers, we get a t-asp index of .844. So my car with the asp mods (but no r comps) should actually be SLOWER than as an STU car.

[drum3]

The modifier is there,, but I don't think it is supposed to be.
Mina,, yes an ASP car on streets is expected to be nearly the same as its STU twin,, You can't use the extra horsepower in most cases. I think modifier will be set at about. .980-.982 last I heard.

[CoolGuy094]

May 21, 2013 8:37:45 GMT -5 rapidbutterfly said:

I am the first to admit I am mathematically challenged. But let me see if I can at least show my work and then you folks can show me the error:

STU pax: .846

60 * .846 = 50.76 pax time

ASP pax: .866
60 * .866 = 51.96 pax time (no Tire modifier) - so the ASP car on R comps should be 1.2 seconds quicker than mine on a 60 second course.

51.96 (ASP result) *. 98 (tire) = 50.92

50.92 - 50.76 = .16

or, in the alternative, take the ASP pax and multiply by .98
.866 * .98 = .8486, call it .849

60 * .849 = 50.94

50.94 - 50.76 = .18


So okay, I screwed up and I am too dumb to see it - not the first time and won't be the last - but where is the error?

Triad gave T-SS a .837 pax this weekend, so I mean - what am I missing?

I see what you're saying now... I didn't realize you were comparing STU to T-ASP... I thought you just meant comparing ASP to T-ASP.

[CoolGuy094]

So for my case it would be:

STR pax: 0.839

60.0 * 0.839 = 50.34 STR pax time

SSM pax: 0.881

60.0 * 0.881 = 52.86 SSM pax time

T-SSM pax: 0.881 * 0.98 = 0.86338

60.0 * 0.86338 = 51.8028 T-SSM pax time

51.80 - 50.34 = 1.46 seconds difference between STR and T-SSM given same raw time

In order for STR and T-SSM to tie in PAX, what raw time would T-SSM have to run?

50.34 = x * 0.86338

x = 50.34 / 0.86338 = 58.3057

60.0 - 58.3057 = 1.694

So in order for a T-SSM car to tie in pax with an STR car, the T-SSM car would have to run 1.694 seconds faster on a 60 second course. Does this sound reasonable? I guess it can work with some classes but not on others.

[rapidbutterfly]

Andy, cool. I am simply pointing out that the RTR / RTF pax mods work for sh1te on SP and above. In your case, I'm not sure how direct the comparison is with STR - I don't know anything about s2ks except they're fast and pretty, but isn't yours supercharged?

Anthony - I'll say again, my car, unlimited wheel width, unlimited tire width, overbore, update backdate, more ways to lose weight, diff changes, etc. - all of these and my car would only run less than .2 quicker on a 60 second course? The SP mods include a lot more than power. Wheels, tires, and diffs alone, without more, would be worth more than .2 at most places. a lot more.

On the TSCC model, I could get a softer pax than STU right now simply by changing over to T-ASP (.844 to .846), AND I could do a ton of extra mods.

How does that make sense?

[CoolGuy094]

For your case Mina...

STU pax: 0.846

60 * 0.846 = 50.76

T-ASP pax: 0.866 * 0.98 = 0.84868

In order for STU and T-ASP to tie in PAX, what raw time would T-ASP have to run?

50.76 = x * 0.84868

x = 50.76 / 0.84868 = 59.811

60.0 - 59.811 = 0.189

So in order for a T-ASP car to tie in pax with an STU car, the T-ASP car would only have to run 0.189 seconds faster on a 60 second course. That is where it gets pretty ridiculous. I clearly see your point.

[CoolGuy094]

The same case exists if you compare STR to T-BSP. You could get a softer pax in T-BSP with much more allowance on mods compared to STR. So I guess its looking like the street prepared classes all get a bit of a biased bump when it comes to running in Tire, where as the stock classes and the street modified work out more appropriately.

[srduck]

You're not wrong, Walter.... just....

We can either break up the Tire class and make it RT style which only applies to stock class. That means creating less competition and more individual classes as well as screwing over people who have done stuff to their car but don't want to run R-comps......

Or we can leave things the way they are and there will be situations that seem odd like this....


PAX isn't a perfect system, especially based on how many people whine and bitch about it.... but it's the best thing we've got for comparing times between classes. Everything other than ST* classes are based on having R-Comps or even bias ply slicks, which is about the easiest way to take time off a car, more than any other mod out there. So "fudging" the math a little with a .975 or .980 modifier is perfectly fair in my mind to even that out. Again, not perfect, but what is?

[rapidbutterfly]

Walter posted in this thread?

If you say, Bob, that PAX isn't a perfect system, but it's the best we have - what I am trying to say is that these paradoxes get much worse when you get past RTR / RTF situations. And I would say that if this is the best we have (.844 T-ASP indices, for example), then that's a bit like saying that in the past, sacrifices to unseen deities in hopes of better weather were the best way we could plan our planting. May have been true, but I would hesitate to infer much.

[rapidbutterfly]

Also, Jim, isn't there a false dilemma here - isn't one option to keep Tire using the regular PAX numbers, but those who self-select into Tire are simply comparing themselves to each other?