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Post by srduck on May 21, 2013 11:12:11 GMT -5
Obviously you're not a golfer....  Realistically, this is only going to be an issue until the end of this year. Next year, with "Street" class.... everything gets turned on its ear and the whole world goes completely crazy, and tire PAX modifiers are no longer required. |
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rapidbutterfly
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Post by rapidbutterfly on May 21, 2013 11:24:59 GMT -5
Right, Andy - the STR /BSP comparison is solid. But then again, consider the T-SM pax - that comes out to .849 assuming a .98 RT pax modifier. Virtually the same analysis applies as with T-ASP, only even MORE mods are allowed, with very little projected difference in time. There again, using TSCC numbers, my car under SM rules should actually be slower than it is now. That's under a ruleset that includes all the SP mods and even more. That's crazy. The same case exists if you compare STR to T-BSP. You could get a softer pax in T-BSP with much more allowance on mods compared to STR. So I guess its looking like the street prepared classes all get a bit of a biased bump when it comes to running in Tire, where as the stock classes and the street modified work out more appropriately. |
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rapidbutterfly
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Post by rapidbutterfly on May 21, 2013 11:28:56 GMT -5
Um, Steven, okay? I looked it up (I'm sorry I got confused by the fact that there is an active club member named Walter)....
So I'm not wrong, I'm an a$$hole? Wonderful. Fantastic.
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Post by z3elda on May 21, 2013 11:35:05 GMT -5
SRS BZNS...
Keep Calm
Race on.
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rapidbutterfly
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Post by rapidbutterfly on May 21, 2013 11:41:30 GMT -5
I'm sorry for speaking out of turn. I appreciate being reminded of my place.
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Post by srduck on May 21, 2013 11:43:59 GMT -5
No its just the 100th time we've rehashed the same argument.
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rapidbutterfly
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Post by rapidbutterfly on May 21, 2013 12:05:36 GMT -5
And were the data any different previously? Or is it not about data?
But I forget myself. My deepest apologies for the demands on your time.
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Post by CoolGuy094 on May 21, 2013 12:17:59 GMT -5
LMFAO, well that escalated quickly.  Mina I think it is a case of what works for the majority sucks for the rest of us. Maybe all of STU should register for T-ASP and all of STR should register for T-BSP just for s**ts and giggles at the next event. I would try to work on finding a better common number, or perhaps a different multiplier for each pax class, but I don't know how well that idea would be received either. Plus, it sounds like a bunch of excel work I don't really feel like getting into. AND I don't really know how one class should compare to another as we have been discussing. Sorry  |
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Post by srduck on May 21, 2013 12:25:26 GMT -5
Look.... I don't know what it is you want me to say. We've been over this again and again and again, and there's an entire thread dedicated to the topic ccrscca.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=solo2&action=display&thread=5947We've heard arguments with data and without data. We've heard from people who want tire pax to be used, from people who think tire pax is stupid, from people who think ST should get additional tire pax on top of their existing pax accounting for street tires, and from people who think pax is bad and we should just do away with it entirely. Ultimately though, in that thread, it was decided that we're not using it in 2013, and the case should be closed. So... yeah... I'm tired of hearing about it. The horse is dead.... the carcass is almost gone... and the bat you're beating it with is hanging on by a splinter. Ultimately, this event was run by TSCC and they're free to do it their way. If you want to start up a new debate over there and get their timing people to chime in on the how's and why's, feel free. For the SOLO Cup I just take their results and plug them into my spreadsheets. It was supposed to be about having fun, and incessant bickering over statistical "trivial BS" (as Casino would put it) isn't fun. I'm bowing out of this debate since obviously my joking offends people. When there's a finalized PAX result list, someone let me know and I'll update the results. In the meantime, there's a bit of horse carcass left that hasn't been properly tenderized, I believe.  |
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rapidbutterfly
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Post by rapidbutterfly on May 21, 2013 12:33:29 GMT -5
I read that thread. Didn't see a lot of data in it.
Yes, I'm so atypical .... I don't like a stranger calling me an a$$hole. I apologize for that, too.
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Post by CoolGuy094 on May 21, 2013 12:43:09 GMT -5
I actually didn't realize that we (CCR) weren't using the Tire pax modifier this year (obviously as read by my previous comments) so that was my bad for supplying false information. Last I briefly mentioned it to AJ (back when I was still in T-SSM) I thought the consensus was that it was going to be used.
As I say... What-ev, Bev.
Let's go back to picking flowers and having hugging contests.
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Post by stealthgtfour on May 21, 2013 12:51:48 GMT -5
tittysprinkles!!!
just thought my $0.02 would be appreciated here
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Post by PinkBimmer on May 21, 2013 12:56:32 GMT -5
I'm confused.....
the only event that the tire modifier was used in this year was the joint scr event at black lake?
But in CCR the decision was made to not use the additional tire modifier (I think), don't know how much that was communicated I know it was tossed back and forth for awhile...
Nice math work there Andy and Mina.... as an accountant by trade I sure wouldn't have wanted to do all that math for comparison. fancy work there.... Leave it to Andy the Engineer to do all that this isn't the first time he has used fancy number crunching.
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Post by illbebetter on May 21, 2013 13:35:21 GMT -5
Mark, "titty sprinkles" is only effective when Morgan Freeman says it.
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Post by Frodo on May 21, 2013 13:44:28 GMT -5
 Honestly though, this is a hobby for all of us. Not a profession. If you want to trophy hunt like some people seem to be doing by nit picking by not having that extra .xxx of their time reduced thats fine. But there's no need for you to take something like the Club Cup, which was originally implemented not as a means to bitch and moan about numbers, but to promote even more cross-club event participation and induce an even better social experience for us all, and just try to tarnish it and make it a life or death competition. As I'm not anyone of official Club standing I feel no harm in or moral pangs about saying that some people need to stop whining about this. Put your big girl panties on, or boxers for the men in here, and deal with it. A decision has been made on this topic for CCR. Don't like it? Well kick rocks and find another place to run. If you want to argue about a Triad event results configuration take it there. They have a forum for this and they'd love to have the discussion I'm sure.  |
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Post by 1slowcrx on May 21, 2013 13:47:28 GMT -5
Jeebus.... Guys, something is obviously weird with the software from the LJVM event last Sunday. The timing van had a computer crash and they kicked ass to limit down time with the fear of rain coming.
For continuity between CCR/TSCC and the solo cup we will re-visit the tire class situation at our next meeting. Maybe leaving our no modifier, just straight pax based tire class system as is (working in Axware of course) and then using the modifier to calculate the solo cup results. We'll see what the club says at the meeting.
A lot of you CCR folks are TSCC members as well. IF you'd like input in this. Head out to our meeting or send a representative (Licursi needs to come visit anyways)
NOW.... Can we please all just ducking (your board's filter sucks) get along. No need for SRS BZNS drama getting in the way of people having fun. The blunt and passive aggressive BS in this thread is totally harshing my "the rain stayed mostly away" mellow from the weekend.
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Post by PinkBimmer on May 21, 2013 14:06:10 GMT -5
And the rain did hold up mainly it really only rained bad right after the event ended that was good timing.. unlike some people I drive better in the rain (I'm weird).
As someone who has been in the timing van and has had to input manual times into AxWare its no fun whatsoever.. so applaud to whoever had to do that. I've had to do that at all of the subaru events that we have had.. its not fun.
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Post by matthugie on May 21, 2013 14:21:24 GMT -5
For continuity between CCR/TSCC and the solo cup we will re-visit the tire class situation at our next meeting. Maybe leaving our no modifier, just straight pax based tire class system as is (working in Axware of course) and then using the modifier to calculate the solo cup results. We'll see what the club says at the meeting. Continuity would be not using the modifier at all as CCR hasn't been using it, which also simplifies things. That said, does anyone in the solo cup besides me even run in tire class? I'm probably going to switch to open SM for TSCC events going forward anyway since I have some new wheels and tires coming next month (and I'm getting murdered in tire class up there), which could make all of this moot. |
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Post by Donutz on May 21, 2013 14:27:36 GMT -5
#mathsucks
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Post by CoolGuy094 on May 21, 2013 14:30:44 GMT -5
I thought you said "#mattsucks" LOL |
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Post by stealthgtfour on May 21, 2013 15:26:16 GMT -5
Mark, "titty sprinkles" is only effective when Morgan Freeman says it. i will dick stomp morgan freeman for stealing my chit!!! |
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Post by drum3 on May 21, 2013 18:03:29 GMT -5
When we set up the Rules for the Evolution Super Shootouts , we chose a .985 modifier ,,it was a little harsh but we were not going to give the Tire the advantage . SCCA , Howard Duncan said they would be revising the RT modifier to .980 or .982 depending on what Rick Ruth came up with after having data to actually compare . I think after deciding where to go ,,the entire class structure was set to change so further comparisons and new modifiers just no longer mattered .
Bottom line , it wasnt set up to accommodate all classes and wasnt perfect even for those it was set up for . If you see an advantage to reclassing , take it . That is your prerogative . Next year it wont matter .
This sport has never been fair for every car in every class ,,,never will . The best they can do is give everyone a place to play . My GS 140hp Neon is classed against its big brother the 245 hp SRT-4 ,,,I didnt think thats fair but its where it ended up . The ES Miatas will soon be classed with the CS Miata ,, not exactly fair either .
And as far as the STU STI vs an ASP STI in Tire ,,we did a days testing for the Shootouts when we were considering a Tire class beyond RT . That was one of our test cars . On a 54 second course , the ASP STI was consistently 1.8 seconds slower on Street tires ,,about .4 slower than our STU car on the same tires . Optimizing the tire width would have gained a tenth or 2 but not much . Go back and look at some of the National Tour results , STU regularly beats ASP . The bigger courses are most often speed maintenance courses and reward suspension over horse power. Even CSP usually beats ASP . And when you consider from STF to SSP is usually only a 6-8 second separation on National courses it is pretty easy to see similar times from similar chassis even if one is better prepared .
Again , the system isnt perfect , if you find a better solution the SCCA would love to know.
Exploit its weaknesses !
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Post by cr89x on May 23, 2013 16:21:11 GMT -5
I'll just note this apology. Andy, yes I said I would put in the tire modifier for tire class in overall results. How I was going to handle it is post a fourth report with tire overall pax results. I just never remembered to do it.
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