Advice on hill climb classing and car prep

[NCMR2]

Hey everyone! This is Bryan Cooper, one of the volunteers for the last few events at the dragon. I have been autoxing off and on for some time but I am dying to get involved in hill climbs and time trials. I just have a few questions ha will help get me there first.

My autox car that I will be using is an 82 Toyota Celica classed well in FSP. I don't think I have ever seen hat class run up the hill, so is there another classing system I need to read up on or should I just pick another class to have some other entries to compete with?

Car prep: I know I need a current 5 point harness (new g force on order), 4 point roll bar with diagonal (working with a shop), full nomex suit and gloves, snell rated helmet, and fire bottle, but am I missing anything than general tech inspection stuff? And where do I find the right info on what size pipe must be used for the roll bar? And I am aware of some used gear dealers for the suit stuff, but is there anyone here that has extra stuff I could maybe borrow? And as for other car prep, what other advice would you veterans give to prep a car for this other than how you would for autox?

I feel I had one more big question to ask but I can't remember it. I will get back on that if I remember.

Thanks in advance!

[lancer360]

I'm not versed in all the rules for hill climbs, but regardless please do yourself a favor and spend the money on a high quality 6-point harness and a head and neck restraint. Both Hans and Simpson make some high quality head and neck restraints that are non-carbon fiber so it brings the cost down significantly. I really like the Simpson Hybrid Pro Rage, but the HANS products are good too. Both are around the same price point.

simpsonraceproducts.com/head-neck/hybrid_rage.html

As far as a harness go, I really like Schroth belts. The US distributor is HMS Motorsports. I have bought several different harnesses from them for my Elise and my Formula 600. They have tons of options for belts and mounting solutions. Don't just go by what is on the website as they can often mix and match various components together to get you a proper solution for your car. I haven't seen any other belt manufacturer that comes close to the variety these guys offer.

www.hmsmotorsport.com/store

I don't have any relation with either of these companies other than being a very satisfied customer.

[czrider]

SCCA Time Trials to include level four (4), (Hill Climbs) incorporate FSP as one of the Street Prepared "SOLO" classes. Six point belts are what you want to install or upgrade to. Some driver equipment is available from Ted Theodore's loaner program. Either a window net or arm restraints are needed. For a better understanding look at the free rule book posting on SCCA home page under "Club Racing" Time Trials.

[illbebetter]

You would still run FSP. All you need is harness, window net or arm restraints, proper suit/gear, fire extinguisher, 4-point roll bar. If you install a non-FIA seat it must have a back brace attaching it to the roll bar. The roll bar construction rules are pretty specific and are in the TT rules. CCR has a gear loaner program for new drivers, see Ted Theodore about that. You also need to get a novice driver permit - $35 and a form.

[czrider]

The back brace for the seat is not required for SCCA Time Trials (SOLO-FSP) in any publications that are currently available. What is the source for the indicated requirement? Even though the Time Trial program falls under the Club Racing administration, the TT Rulebook is the GCR for SCCA Time Trials. The same as the SOLO rulebook is the GCR for SOLO. See 1.1 Time Trial level 4, 2013 SCCA TTR. Road Race only classes are regulated under the SCCA Road Racing GCR which does address "FIA" seats and back bracing. Seat back bracing is an "Street Prepared" option and can be a worth while investment along with a dedicated Race seat that is well designed.

[illbebetter]

TT level 4
9.2.1.L
Seats - the seat shall be securely mounted. If a folding seat, it shall be securely bolted or strapped in place. It is highly recommended that the driver’s seat be replaced with a one-piece bucket type race seat meeting and include an upper brace if non-FIA homologated.

I was told I needed to brace my racing seats. Depends on who does your logbook if they will require it or not. It's definitely required in the GCR 9.3.41 seats.

[lancer360]

If your running the stock seat, you don't have to. If you install an after market one piece racing seat and it isn't FIA homologated than you do need the back brace.

[Steve Eckerich]

I will copy here the response I gave Brian on the HSCC site.



Good advice so far, welcome to the hillclimb madness.

It really is much easier than most think to get started. Your car will be good to go with an 1.75 x .095 roll bar with diagonal. I highly recommend going all the way across the car with harness bar at shoulder height so any passenger in future events (think track day or drivers school) will have the same harness setup you have. It is required for those events and out of date harness setups for the passenger are easy to come by. You need a 2 pound dry chemical fire bottle with a metal bracket (asheville fire carries them) and a set of arm restraints. Window nets may only be used in full cage cars.

We have loaner suits, gloves, shoes, etc, but you must have your own helmet that is SA2005 or newer. Any leather gloves and shoes are acceptable. If you have facial hair you will need a balaclava (head sock) of nomex. Usually $20. I have a deal with safety supplier to get a discount on everything you might need and will pass it along to new racers at my cost as I have for many of the HSCC members.

You can bring the car to my shop in Weaverville and we can get you a log book issued and tech done before the race after you get the bar done. Feel free to give me a call and come by to see proper design for the bar.

Same offer goes to any other HSCC peeps that want to go hillclimbing, we have a blast. I hate to lose Brian as a safety worker but good to see him take the next step.

[jockellis]

We had six point belts in the Skip Barber FFs and upon braking the crotch belts came together and did a really nasty pinching of the family jewels. How does one prevent being neutered?

[lancer360]

6 points in a formula car are a bit different than a tin top as the mounting locations for the sub belts are located differently and your seating position is much more reclined.  Formula cars should be running a formula car specific belt for the best safety.  Because of the much more reclined seating position the load path in the event of a wreck is a bit different.  In my F600 I use the Schroth Formula II.  The sub belts and the lap belts share a common bolting location. This helps keep the bottom of the sub belts pulled to the side. The top of the sub belts are then routed through d-rings on the lap belt so again that moves the sub belts further apart saving the jewels.



For a tin top I really like the Schroth Hybrid II belt for comfort and safety. The sub belts are looped around the lap belts keeping the sub belts pulled apart. This also removes that big metal buckle that many of the traditional 6 point belts have. 



The Hybrid II belts also have a pull up adjuster on the lap belts which gives you much better leverage to tighten the belts in the tight confines of a racing seat.  They also have a HANS specific model if you decide to go that route.

[farrout]

Amen to what Chris provided. Proper installation of the sub straps is critical. Mounting the straps to the rear and side (could be common with the lap belts) allows you to sit on the sub straps and have them come wrap around the inner thigh. This keeps them off the jewels and puts the impact pressure mostly on the thigh. You also want them tight against the thigh and not loose. Loose fit creates an impact loading as your body slides forward only to b arrested by the substraps. Send me your email and I can send you the rollbar specs. [e-mail]

[NCMR2]

You guys are awesome for all the info so far. I am slacking for not actually reading through the guidebook yet, but time is usually an issue for me. My main question now though is, are 5 point harnesses the minimum requirement and you guys are just recommending me to a better system, or is a 6 point required?

And my email is [e-mail] btw

[illbebetter]

5 point minimum. 3 inch shoulder straps unless you are using a head/neck restraint. If using a HNR then 2 inch is ok. Must be SFI rated and in date.

[Steve Eckerich]

6 Point is $5 more than 5 point and may be the minimum required in the near future. If all you plan to do is Hillclimb/TT then do not spend the extra money for FIA rated ($20 more) as all SFI belts are good for 5 years for TT. I would highly recommend camlock belts for ease of use and definitely much easier when running arm restraints.

[NCMR2]

Exactly what I need to know. Yeah HC and TT will be the most I will be able to do for some time, so I should get good use out of them before they expire.

[MattP]

Jul 7, 2013 12:15:17 GMT -5 Steve Eckerich said:

6 Point is $5 more than 5 point and may be the minimum required in the near future. If all you plan to do is Hillclimb/TT then do not spend the extra money for FIA rated ($20 more) as all SFI belts are good for 5 years for TT. I would highly recommend camlock belts for ease of use and definitely much easier when running arm restraints.

Good advice in this post. Would add one thought about cam locks and arm restraints: the cam locks with the lever like on G-Force cam locks (rather than the finger depressions pictured above) can accidentally get opened by the straps on the arm restraints. Had it happen to me in the carousel at CMP when I got a little crossed up...

[Steve Eckerich]

Good point Matt.

[farrout]

I have been using the Schroth CamLocs for years. Never had an issue with accidental opening. They are more expensive than G Force or some of the others but they are great for my sports racer or FF.

I ran GForce Camlocs in my Miata for years also. Never had an issue there.

The problem with a 5 point is that the sub strap is directly in front of the jewels. In an incident as your body slides forward the sub strap may well crush those puppies. As explained earlier, the 6 point comes up around the thighs and avoids the jewels. I recommend a 6 point

For TT/HC, go with the SFI as they are cheaper and good for the same 5 year period.

[jockellis]

Are Corbeau Forza seats FIA homologated?

[farrout]

There are 2 different Corbeau Forza seats. One is FIA certified and one is not. Saw one place online where the price difference is $80. The FIA version will have the FIA certification very clearly imprinted on the seat back/side

[paulkots]

Sorry for bumping an old thread. I am looking to get my car ready for the 2nd Dragon Hill Climb. I have a question. Do I need an emergency shut off switch installed into the car? Don't really want to do this on a street driven car.

Per the rule book I will have the following:
FIA rated seats
6 point harness
4 point roll cage (Bolt in)
Fire extinguisher
Arm restraints
Racing shoes, helmet and gloves. Will probably need to use the loaner program for suit
If with budget then HANS device

Also, I have been reading regarding the Novice Permit.

3.NOVICE TT PERMIT: Other than the above, step one would to obtain a Novice Time Trials permit. The permit application form and medical forms can be found the websites below. The cost of the permit is $35 and the only medical information required is a self certification of your medical history. No doctor’s exam is necessary at this point unless you have some special medical condition and SCCA will let you know that when they review your application. You can then race using the Novice TT permit. Some events are set up such that the Chief Steward can issue TT Novice credentials at the event itself. Contact the particular event chairman. Finish 3 flat track events (Level 3) without incident, have the Chief Steward of each event sign off on your Novice Permit Book, and you can then apply for your full TT permit/

Do I have to attend PDX events to get signed off for the hill climb or just a $35 fee for a permit is all I need? I have been to a couple of track events and done some autocross. Will be at the March 1st Z-Max event. I wish I can make it to the 1st Dragon Hill Climb but my cage is being delivered in 3-4 weeks which would put me into a mad rush to finish.

I am also interested in working during the 1st Dragon Hill Climb but I only have the Saturday available. Would this work?

Thank you guys for all the help and hopefully I will see some of you at the hill climb soon.

[tedebayer]

Pavel... glad to have you running with us. Anything we can do to help, let us know. To your questions...
1.) Emergency shut off - it is recommended but not required for street prepared classes (carry over classes from solo). The cars are teched by class rules... if it is a road race class, it would need a emergency cut off (4 post /alternator kill switch).
2.) Gear - looks like you are off to a good start. Hans is not required but recommended. Nomex socks are cheap but we do have loaner socks with the nomex suits in the Second Gear Program. Free loan...first come, first served. 12 suits right now. I would check 2 weeks in advance to reserve your suit to be sure you get one.
3.) You can run Track Time Trial events on a Novice Permit. Normally, you have to have a Full TT Competition license to run hillclimbs but... you can run the Dragon hillclimb on a Novice Permit as long as you attend the classroom session Friday night before the hillclimb and take a slow ride with a mentor on Saturday morning. Permit is $35 and two forms which are found at www.sedivtt.com under the forms tab. The medical form is a self physical.. no doctor required. I would send it in soon as you can so it is done.
4.) March Dragon - it looks like you have all you need... roll cage install is not that bad! Come on and do it!
5.) If you would like to work one day, we would be glad to have you have just the same. You really do learn a lot working the events... most of us started that way. We appreciate the help. For sign up info, see the STAFF information here... www.dragonhillclimb.com/2014/02/sign-up-for-dragon-vi-now/

You are in for a lot of fun... it does take some work to get everything together but first run up the hill makes it all worthwhile. The juice is worth the squeeze. Let us know if we can help.

[paulkots]

So I can just carry over any class I am in at autocross? I didn't class my car yet, just finishing it.

I will ask the company that is building the cage if it will be ready with enough lead time. If it is, I will run the dragon, if not, I will work.

Thanks for the help Ted.

[tedebayer]

Sorry... on classes, I should have explained a little more. SOME classes came over from Solo years ago. The listing of classes accepted are in the Supps here on 2nd page.
myautoevents.com/pls/mae/frmEventDetail.ShowFlyer?psevent_id=14458

GCR
Formula: Atlantic (FA), 1000 (FB), Continental (FC), Enterprises (FE), Vee (FV), F (FF), 500/600 (F5/6), Mazda (FM), S
(FS), First (FST)
Grand Touring (GT1, GT2, GT3, GTL)
Improved Touring (ITR, ITS, ITA, ITB, ITC)
Super Touring (STU, STL)
Production (EP, FP, HP)
American Sedan (AS)
B-Spec
Spec Miata
Sports Racing (ASR, P1, P2)
Spec Racer Ford (SRF)
Touring (T1, T2, T3, T4)
Spec MX-5 (SM5)



Solo Classes:
Street Prepared (SSP, ASP, BSP, CSP, DSP, ESP, FSP)



SEDiv & Regional Classes:
Improved Touring O (ITO)
Club Formula Ford (CF)
Improved Touring 7 (IT7, IT7R)
Super Production O (SPO)
Super Production U (SPU)
Street Unlimited – (SU)
GTA-Southeast (GTA)
Vintage Open (VO)
Vintage Closed (VC)
Rally (RA-2WD)
Rally (RA-4WD)
Specials (SP)

There is some additional clarification on rules here : www.sedivtt.com/rules/

Shoot me an email to [e-mail] giving me a description of car and what has been done. If you are driving in Street Prepared, you only need a 4 pt. roll bar with diagonal and harness bar. That might be cheaper, quicker and... you can still add full cage later if you decide to. 2014 TIME TRIAL Rules (only 3 pages) has a description of roll cage requirements (metal, thickness, angles, etc.) THANKS! Hope you can make it to the March Dragon!

I asked a friend to send me a picture that described his experience at his first hillclimb. THIS is what he sent....

Attachments:

[jockellis]

What are arm restraints?

[czrider]

Sometimes they can be handcuffs.For racing applications, they are adjustable straps that fasten to the driving suit d-rings to limit upward movement of the arms in a violent maneuver such as a rollover or spinning.

[farrout]

I have used a set of M&R Arm Restraints for 9 years. The arm part is a velcro'd loop that you size for your arms. There is a one piece adjustable clipped that hooks into your lapbelt and then hooks individually into each arm. The one piece for the lap belt is easier to fasten up than the 2 individual straps other brands have, Being able to move around and hook up the straps to your arms later makes getting harnessed in easier. They are pretty heavy duty.

[jockellis]

Thanks, Farrout. My church just got a new pastor who hails from Mentone, AL, which is one of the small towns I would pass through on the way to Scottsboro. Don't suppose there is anything new on Crow Mountain?

[heavy85]

Steve, Ted, or others ..... Im considering taking the Z the next step when I update to a cage this winter ... and in preparation for Pikes Peak (yes thats the goal for 2016). This would make me no longer SU legal. What's the next progressive class that my car would fit in? The GT1 and T1 dont seem to work and special is a bit extreme for a unibody car. SPO is next but as I interpret the rules requires 'GT/Production' feature such as scatter shields, fuel cell (eventually needed anyway but want to keep running during the upgrade phase), transmission catch can, etc, etc, etc.

So is there a good class I can still run as I slowly update the car over the next two years or do I need to be careful to keep it SU legal and made a huge jump all at once?

Thanks
Cameron