Roll bar legality for AX/PDX

[huntz0r]

I searched and did not find a definitive answer to this question.

My current car is a '94 Miata which I plan on running in E Street and occasional PDX. No TT or hillclimb in the near future so I am not concerned with the requirements for those series.

I am looking at getting the center-braced Hard Dog Deuce roll bar, which I am aware does not meet requirements for TT. However, I am seeing conflicting information as to how SCCA (in particular CCR SCCA) regards this bar for AX/PDX. Specifically, I read that a car with a bar that isn't fully compliant would not be allowed to run in AutoX despite the fact a rollbar isn't required, and that the same goes for PDX.

Yes I know all about the Hardcore and that it meets all the regs. Suffice to say that I strongly prefer the double-hoop design, and if at some later time I need to buy a Hardcore to meet my needs I'm okay with that. As for track safety, the broomstick test should not be an issue since I am under 5'3" and expect to be sitting well below the hoop.

So, the question is: can someone advise me whether having the center-braced Deuce on my Miata will prevent me from using the car in AX or PDX only in CCR region?

[tedebayer]

I can't help much on AX side, I'll let Michael, AJ or Duckles speak for autocross. For PDX side, I wish I could give you a flat answer (Yes /No) but there is not one. I corresponded about this with Craig Farr, our SCCA TTAC Representative.

Here are the two answers for PDX :
A. Based on the new 3 page Time Trial Rules, found here : www.sedivtt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/2014_PDX_CT-Driver_Rules_final.pdf - The Deuce meets the basic PDX requirement of a 4 point roll bar as long as your helmet is below the bar (sounds like you are fine there).
and B. SCCA allowed regions some latitude to decide for their specific PDX events. A region may put in their supps/additional conditions on top of the Time Trial Rules for their event (for example : Atlanta Region could allow factory hardtop and no roll bar at an airport event but require a roll bar based on Level 3/4 at Road Atlanta event. I would not recommend running Road Atlanta with a few layers of fiberglass between me and ground. Stuff happens.) There are some Regions who go beyond the TTR and state their Supps PDX requirement in terms of the roll bar specifications in the TT/HC TTR. That is a Region's prerogative. Since PDX is not competition based, the rules allow the hosting region to make the final call on an event by event basis. CCR does not have a flat rule on this... it is event dependent and up to Event Chair who writes supps and Board's approval of those supps.
My opinion FWIW - I started off with a Deuce in Elvira (CSP Miata). I thought it was VERY strong but it was slightly heavier and not legal for TT at the time. They both cost close to same amount. Resale value of used Deuces I have seen in last few years has not been great. People seem to want Hard Dog... it has a very good reputation from incidents (see website) and I know 3 people looking for a Hard Dog to run Track Trial and Hillclimbs. We run a custom made bar in Elvira now... TT legal, stronger and cheaper. In the new PDX/CT rules, SCCA puts the onus on you to decide what you need - "There is a considerable gap between a minimum standard and the best protection that current technology can provide. It is recommended that seats, restraint systems, roll bars, and helmets meet the highest safety standards possible."
Hope that helps.

[integra55]

I can't state a specific rule … but I also can't understand how a car with a roll bar would be excluded from a-x, assuming the same car without the roll bar would be accepted … that just doesn't pass the logic test for me …even considering that this is the SCCA

[huntz0r]

^^ Well another possibility I have seen mentioned is that a bar that doesn't meet SCCA regs can be classified as a chassis brace instead of a rollbar, putting the car in a higher class (SP?). For instance a 2-point like the HD Hard Bar, or even a 4 point without diagonal braces may be handled this way.

It is probably a deal breaker if I would not be allowed to run in Street with the Deuce installed, nonsensical and frustrating as that may be. I'm not planning to modify the car beyond Street, and while I probably won't be competitive for some time yet I still want to be able to run in my intended class.

[srduck]

Jun 4, 2014 22:40:31 GMT -5 huntz0r said:

So, the question is: can someone advise me whether having the center-braced Deuce on my Miata will prevent me from using the car in AX or PDX only in CCR region?

For AutoX, it won't. You're fine in any class with a rollbar

From the Street Class rules, page 71 of the 2014 rulebook

G. Roll Bars and Roll Cages
1. Roll bars may be added. Roll bars may be welded in. Standard
roll-over hoops and covers may be removed if the resulting installation
meets Appendix C.A, Basic Design Considerations. The
total weight of components added must not be less than that of
components removed.

Yes there's chassis bracing with it on a Miata, but what you make up in stiffness you give away by adding a fairly substantial amount of weight well over the car's center of gravity.

[drum3]

Yup , any bar is considered a safety addition in autox and is fine . For PDX I'm pretty sure it has to meet TT GCR and contain at least 1 diagonal brace.

[farrout]

My personal recommendation, rather than a legality version: I would go with the TT legal Hard Dog for a few reasons. I drove a CSP Miata for many years as a daily driver and AX/TT car.
First is that it does all the things that a Deuce does (safety, chassis stiffening, etc) and will also be legal for any PDX/HPDE/TT you ever enter. The Deuce is a decent bar but not all of the various HPDE groups will let you run with it (many HPDE groups require a "SOLO I" legal bar).
Second is that the Deuce does not have a design to allow you to properly mount a race harness. Even for AX, a race harness is a significant improvement over a OEM belt.
Third is that any PDX/HPDE instructor will also have to fit under the bar. Few of them will be 5'3"

On any roll bar, you will need to add roll bar padding. Driving the car on the street without it is asking for your head to impact the bar in any sort of an altercation with another car/object. Your head will come out a distant second place with a serious concussion/fracture.