TT Passing Options.

[farrout]

At Barber, we combine Road Racers and Time Trialers in the 3 TT groups and have dedicated passing zones with a point by. Sadly, there are a number of RR and TT drivers who ignore those passing zones and race pass in the corners.

What to do? There are some options.

#1 - Keep the passing zones as they are. At the Mandatory TT Drivers meeting, we could hand out a specific armband to show that you have attended the mandatory meeting. Pit/Grid will only let you on track for the TT sessions if you have the specific arm band.

#2 - same as #1 but we eliminate the point by.

#3 - Have 1 Tin Top and the Formula cars do open passing. Keep one Tin Top group with restricted passing.

#4 - Go to open passing similar to a Test N Tune day for all TT sessions. This will be a change for the TT drivers who will have to adapt to it. The RR drivers will have to show some caution and awareness of the "novices" on track. At many HPDEs, the Advanced drivers have open passing.

I really want the comments from the TT drivers and the RR drivers whether you participated in the TT sessions or not.


I sent the above note to all who had registered for Barber and posted it on a couple local forums.

I have had around 25-30 responses so far from both TT and RR. It looks like option #2 is DOA. Responses for the other 3 options are evenly distributed.

One option that I did not initially put down but has been mentioned by a few is to do passing anywhere with a point-by.

[illbebetter]

I think you guys are doing a great job with building the SEDIV TT program. I didn't see a problem at Barber this year like last year. Everyone seemed better behaved.
I can see allowing open passing in "designated" passing zones. I think allowing open passes in the turns would be detrimental to the TT program. Many TT drivers still use cars they drive daily and don't want to increase the risk of car to car contact. Most car incidents tend to happen in turns. I don't think most TT cars are prepped well enough( ie no cage) to risk car to car contact. I know there are drivers who have no desire to compete in a format that allows open passes. I think any format allowing open passing should require a full TT school similar to RR school before drivers being allowed to compete.

[C4Shane]

Craig,
For me, I think Michael hits the nail on the head. Many of us enjoy a competitive, TIMED, environment but do not want to risk our cars in corner passing situations. Mine is plastic and although it is not a daily driver, I would hate to spend time doing bodywork vs. working on making the car more competitive (or reliable) for the next event. Passing zones are not a hinderance to setting fast laps and one of the things I enjoy about TT is that you can go out, crack off a quick one or two and come back in if you want. I don't have to race the guy next to me to the checkered flag. I definitely do not want passing in corners, TT is a safe environment for my car (and myself). Open passing in zones may be worth consideration for the more experienced TT (or RR) drivers who are used to using their mirrors, but I think point-by provides additional safety. Bottom line for me, is if my car gets bent - I am out of TT.

Thanks for asking,

[tedebayer]

I have to agree with Shane and Michael. Every region has the right to makes changes with in certain boundaries in the their supps in the way events are run. I would not be in favor of running an event with open passing ... if I wanted to road race, I would road race. I think this begins to blur the lines between Time Trial and Road Racing and could lead to the question ... "why have Time Trial?" That said, it is fine to consider and discuss ideas and look for opportunities and ways to improve our program.

Time Trial the way it is fits my car, my budget, my needs and my pleasure "fun" factor. ALL regions have a right to experiment and try new ideas but ultimately, even beyond collected forum opinions, drivers vote with their entry fees. If drivers don't come out in greater numbers or attendance is low, (as I found out by trying a "spring hillclimb in Winter this year" LOL) that tells our leadership what the members prefer. We want the Time Trial program to grow and right now we are moving in a positive direction. Speaking for myself and the car I drive and it's lighter roll bar protection and structure, I would prefer passing stay the way it is for the groups I run in with the Southeast Division.

[Steve Eckerich]

I think Craig you are looking for a series answer to an event specific problem. In the end you are looking for creative ways to make the Barber event profitable. If the weather gods smile and all the stars align you will be lucky to break even, that is reality. You got more guts than I putting that on the schedule again.

That said you could just have one closed wheel group , call it TT or Testing and have the open passing in that group only. Those that want the passing option choose that group, others stay in point by group. Point by anywhere works well because the car being passed has the option to let it happen if they are comfortable. I have personally never witnessed a problem in all the track days we have done with that option in the experienced groups.

[highwayracer]

I am not in favor of open passing at a TT event. Passing by "point by" lets me know the car I'm passing sees me, and allows me to acknowledge the overtaking driver when I'm being passed. I would be open to corner passing by "point by" at select venues. Completely open passing is a non-starter with a lot of the TT community.

[CaptainScopeCreep]

No open passing, my $.02, and undoubtedly biased.

-I have been building a (revamped) hillclimb and TT car. If I had known in advance that I was at risk of another novice or overly ambitious driver tagging me at any point, I'd have capped my spending on the build by about 10% of what I have into it. There are also plenty of us driving vintage racers or "specials" with one off parts that are expensive, or irreplaceable, and don't want to put those parts at risk any more than necessary. I chose TT and hillclimbs specifically to mitigate the risk of being taken out by driver to driver contact, be it by my own error or fellow racer.

-I can see this killing the novice program. There will be too many HPDE heroes with something to prove, and without the knowledge, discipline, and skill to keep it in check at open passing events. Things move fast for people new to going fast on a race course (even the straight ones, like I was accustomed to). It won't take much for the SCCA to reevaluate novice licenses with open passing.

-Open passing, IMO, takes you out of TT territory. At this point, I would have serious reservations about the safety regs for a TT car vs. a GCR car with full cage and fire suppression.

I understand the importance of car counts. That said, open passing at TT's will be a turnoff to a number of the TT drivers, and the events will become RR practice sessions. While I'd be open to Steve's idea of split run groups, that still has its downside in that more run groups equals reduced track time. At the same time, I don't think open passing is going to have positive results in terms of car counts in general. There are more TT racers than there are Time Attack guys out there, yet they manage to bring in better car counts for events that entail restricted, two lap banzai runs than TT events in similar regions - Road Atlanta is a prime example. GTA and TT both at the same track in May of 2014 - 31 entries for the TT, 45 for Time Attack...

[tedebayer]

Craig, please let us know what will be format for this TGPR soon as you can.
Several people have written me and asked how it will be run and would like to know before they make the trip.
I explained, it will not be announced first time at the event and we would know before the event. Correct?
Thanks

[fv90]

Ted - we are not looking into open passing at TGPR, I'll be talking to Andy Tow to make sure we basically stay the same. TGPR is just not a good idea - imagine two GTA cars passing at any turn on the course and well that ain't working to well. We may add an additional passing zone on the small straight from the horseshoe to the skid pad. Barber is being discussed with very good response from both side.
PEr the TGPR Supps
PASSING: There will be multiple cars on the course at any given time. Passing will be allowed on designated straights with a point by from the driver being overtaken. The overtaking driver shall not pass without a “point-by” from the driver being passed. Passing shall be started and finished within the designated passing zones as shown herein. The beginning and end of the passing zones will be marked by cones. Specific instructions will be given at the MANDATORY Driver’s Meeting.

[farrout]

The TGPR supps also have a pictorial rendering of the TGPR track and the allowed passing zones.

I have said this many times but most TT and RR drivers do not read the supps. They are there for a reason which is to communicate necessary information to the drivers and participants.

[farrout]

Lest anyone get confused about the rationale behind this post, other posts on the AL and TVR forums, and an email that I sent out to all those who were registered for the 2014 Barber event -----

This is all about me personally seeking driver opinions about potential options that we could run at BARBER. This is NOT about designing new rules for SEDIV TT.

The 2014 TTR allows open passing. But there is a safety based requirement implicit in the TTR that forces each Region to tailor passing zones to the safety requirements of the track being used. There is also the requirement for any passing zones and/or passing requirements (point-bys, pass only on the right, etc) to be spelled out in the Supps. Washington DC Region has been doing Track Trials open passing at Summit Point for the past 3 years. Other tracks, like TGPR, are not suitable for passing in the turns.

At this time, I do not know what we will do at Barber in 2015. It could be something mentioned above or some new variation based on people's comments. Whatever it is, it will be done with consideration for all drivers and safety will be paramount. When whatever it is is figured out, it will be clearly stated in the Barber Supps which will be available to the public when on-line Registration opens.

If there are any questions, feel free to contact me personally.

[tedebayer]

Thanks Craig... I know that in other divisions, there have been statements made in supps that "Passing rules will be defined in driver's meeting." There have some been surprises for drivers at some of those events... and I know we all want to avoid that in SEDIV.

You said on AL site "Since the TTR allows passing to be either open or controlled, any specific passing rules for each TT event have to be defined in the supps. If there are none defined, my presumption is that there are no passing restrictions other than what is in the GCR regarding on track conduct, etc." I think some took the implication that it could be altered at the event by Chief TT Steward/Safety Steward.

Thanks for clearing that up. I am glad you are exploring new directions to make events financially feasible and better attended... I just want the communications to be clear to all so there is no confusion for the drivers we are serving. Thanks.