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Post by lancer360 on Dec 13, 2007 15:01:50 GMT -5
Well, I talked to Jeremy at the SCCA home office regarding the factory roll bar in my Lotus Elise. As far as he knows, no one has petitioned to have the factory roll bar in the Elise approved for use in TT events. I have talked to a Lotus salesmen that is very big into racing and he is going to hit up Lotus for the design criteria and material dimensions for the stock bar. He said he shouldn't have any problems getting this info for me. As far as I can tell, the only rule the factory bar does not meet is the continuous one piece hoop. The Elise has oversized uprights for the main hoop before it reduces down to a more traditional sized tube. Jeremy stated that the reason behind the one piece main hoop is to reduce the number of potential failure points since the bar can be built by Joe Blow at home using potentially mediocre welding skills versus being professionally welded at the factory. For now though, my time trial career is on hold. I can still do the first event in February since it is a level 2 and I have a factory hard top, but with the rest of the season being level 3 and 4 I really don't see much point. I would have to spend a lot of money on a fire suit and arm restraints for 1 event a year.  Anybody have any thoughts on the odds of me getting the factory roll bar approved? |
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Post by tedebayer on Dec 13, 2007 15:54:26 GMT -5
Chris... go blaze the trail man! Petition them yourself... in 30 days, you will have an answer. It may be that they weaken a bit as they do NOT have a suitable solution to offer. There have been things that were approved that way before...  |
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Post by markt on Dec 13, 2007 19:23:10 GMT -5
I was under the impression that it was OK since the smallest part of the bar met minimum dimensions. Hopefully this can be worked out. This, however, brings up the salient point of TT having to meet Road Race standards. If Topeka isn't careful they'll safety the program out of existence.
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Post by jbyrd on Dec 13, 2007 20:25:53 GMT -5
does no one else run an Elise in TT events? What do they do?
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Post by markt on Dec 14, 2007 5:11:40 GMT -5
I haven't seen one in my 2 years on the circuit
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Post by lagunamiata on Dec 14, 2007 8:22:23 GMT -5
There was a guy in NCR that ran one, but he had a full cage.
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Post by lancer360 on Dec 14, 2007 9:21:58 GMT -5
The only one I know of lived on the east coast of NC and he had a cage put in. However, he sold the car and bought a Porsche Caymen at least 1.5 years ago. Hopefully I can get an answer from Lotus pretty quickly so I can get the ball rolling with SCCA. I'll keep everyone up to date.
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Post by lancer360 on Dec 14, 2007 10:46:09 GMT -5
Quick question regarding the rules on roll bars. It says for level 4 events you must have a roll cage ofr "open production vehicles". By open do they mean convertible/targa?
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Post by markt on Dec 14, 2007 12:09:39 GMT -5
Quick question regarding the rules on roll bars. It says for level 4 events you must have a roll cage ofr "open production vehicles". By open do they mean convertible/targa? not sure what you are reading because this issue was discussed, at length, and rejected. It would have gone into effect in 2011 across the board, 2009 for newcomers but, the rules committee decided not to implement it. |
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Post by lancer360 on Dec 14, 2007 15:23:02 GMT -5
I read it in 11.4 of the time trial rules on page 64. Maybe I don't understand what they mean by "open production" vehicles. Is that something that pertains to GCR rules and not solo rules such as ASP? Edit: Ok I talked to the main office again and they clarified that if I am under ASP then I don't need the full cage, only the roll bar. However, to throw another monkey wrench in the works, you are required to have a diagonal brace in the main hoop for level 4 events. The factory roll bar does not have a diagonal, so assuming it gets approved, then it would only be good for level 3 events. For having such a fun sports car, this car is a pain in the butt to try and do any sanctioned events with it other than autocross.  |
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Post by lancer360 on Dec 21, 2007 10:08:32 GMT -5
Well, my chances of doing time trials is almost nil now. I just talked to an acquaintance that use to do TT with his Elise. He apparently has already had these discussions with SCCA and the conclusion was the roll bar had to be replaced. He gave me the number to the shop that did the work on his car. I then called them and they walked me through everything that has to be done. Apparently quite a few things attach to the roll bar, including the door latch, the engine cover hinges, the rear clam, roll bar cover, etc. He said he can do the work, but it will be around $2500 to get it done and take around 1-2 weeks depending on his work load. He more or less has to disassembly the entire back half of the car including the seats and rear interior including delaminating some of glued on pieces. Once he is done it will all go back together just like stock except for some of the changes to the rear interior pieces to clear the diagonal.
Long story short, this is not something I'm willing to do at this point so I will stick to autocross and do trackdays for my speed fix. This sucks since I was really looking forward to getting into TTs.
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Post by trickbrick on Dec 21, 2007 11:10:54 GMT -5
aw, that stinks Chris. That is a big hassle. I'm sorry...
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Post by lancer360 on Dec 21, 2007 12:55:12 GMT -5
Well, I just got a ray of hope. I talked to another shop down in Georgia that has done several Lotus Elises/Exiges including full cages and they said as long as you got a buddy and 1 maybe 2 weekends you can do the job yourself and he would cut me a deal on the roll bar. It would probably take a couple of weekends to do the job. Now I'm tempted to do it. I wouldn't need it complete until the first level 3 event which isn't until March so it gives me a bit of time. With me doing the labor, the cost is WAY less than the $2500 that other shop wanted. Hmmm... anyone feel like tearing an Elise apart with me? ;D
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Post by lagunamiata on Dec 21, 2007 14:50:47 GMT -5
You know I'll help... Like I said when we talked, I've got a saws-all and a BFH!!
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Post by lancer360 on Dec 21, 2007 15:04:06 GMT -5
Your help is always welcome, but your saws-all WILL be left at home. ;D
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Post by trickbrick on Dec 21, 2007 16:01:36 GMT -5
Lol cool. i'm always up for taking stuff apart. Just don't ask me how it goes when it's supposed to be put back together! |
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Post by lancer360 on Dec 24, 2007 7:28:09 GMT -5
Well, I have talked to numerous people and thought long and hard and decided this just isn't the right platform. The Lotus is a blast to drive, but it just really isn't cut out mechanically to be put on the track other than track days. The amount of work and $$$ that would need to be put into the car to make it competitive in AX and TT in ASP would easily by me a nice formula vee or formula first. Plus if I screwed up and put the car into the wall at the track I would have a hell of a fight on my hand with insurance. I'm just not sure I really want to risk a $40K car at the track when I could race a $5K vehicle at the track and probably turn faster laps. I will definately still keep the Lotus and may even bring it out to an autocross or two, but I'm starting my research and hunt for a Formula Vee or Formula First.
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Post by Warp3 on Dec 24, 2007 12:07:04 GMT -5
Chris...that's exactly why I have my MR2 vs running on the track with my $24k WRX.  |
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Post by markt on Dec 24, 2007 15:54:35 GMT -5
Chris...that's exactly why I have my MR2 vs running on the track with my $24k WRX. True, and if you're looking for comptition CSP has a bit ;D |
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Post by stealthgtfour on Jan 2, 2008 20:55:09 GMT -5
miatas are cheap to buy and modify. ill see ya in csp
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Post by ffhillclimber on Jan 2, 2008 22:12:11 GMT -5
In this case Chris, let me be the first to suggest a Formula Ford 1600. These are super fun cars with more speed than a F Vee and are very simple and easy to maintain. They are competative in autocross in C Mod and Time Trials and Road Racing. You also have the benifit of a full race Hewland gearbox which allows you to set up your gear ratios for each course. Also you can learn to be a chassis engineer with a fully adjustable suspension. You can find good examples available in the $9000 to $12000 range. Mine is a 1970 vintage Caldwell D9 and does very well against more modern chassis. The engine and drivetrain is pretty spec with different chassis. Check out www.apexspeed.com for great info and classifieds. E-mail me if you have any questions. I've been running one for over 20 years now. Stan Vann PS: Here's what one looks like at a hillclimb: |
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Post by lancer360 on Jan 3, 2008 8:08:29 GMT -5
Stan,
I'm on Apexspeed and have been reading up on a lot of material. I am still considering FF, but the operating costs have me a little spooked especially when compared to F500. $400 vs. $4000 to yearly rebuild an engine is a BIG price difference.
I'll send you a PM as I would like to discuss this in detail with you and potentially come over and see your car if you have time.
Thanks,
Chris
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Post by ffhillclimber on Jan 3, 2008 12:45:04 GMT -5
Chris,
I've owned my Caldwell since 1985 and did one rebuild myself after about 10 years of autocross. Then went vintage racing for a couple of years and finally blew that 20 year old engine. I bought a pro built engine in 2002 for $4000 and have run hillclimbs, time trials and autocross with it and have not had any maintainance other than oil changes, minor yearly tune up with plugs, points and valve adjustment. Unless you road race it, you don't need to open them up very often. I do a compression check and leck down test each year and until I see big drop off I don't worry. So in over 20 years I've only had 2 engines and one rebuild. The serious road racers do much more, but I'm not one of them.
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Post by lancer360 on Jan 3, 2008 12:58:10 GMT -5
If you don't mind posting it, what do you think your per event costs are for the car (i.e. not including event fees, hotel, etc)? If you don't want to post it you can send me a PM.
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Post by ffhillclimber on Jan 3, 2008 21:39:28 GMT -5
Chris,
I haven't really figured this, but excluding entry fees, gas for towing, food and lodging, of which gas is becoming the number one cost. I would say a rough figure would be about $80 to $85 per event for 4 hillclimbs, 2 track time trials and about 8 autocrosses per year. With a new set of Hoosier R25As the biggest cost. Keep in mind I bought the Caldwell for $3500 23 years ago including a open trailer and a few spares. Of course that is probably about $12,000 in 2008 dollars.
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Post by markt on Jan 4, 2008 5:05:24 GMT -5
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Post by ffhillclimber on Jan 4, 2008 12:57:22 GMT -5
Well that sort of makes it a good investment then. Honestly it seems that the cost of most street cars has more than doubled since 1985. Don't you think? And gas and food and housing and electricity and on and on.
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Post by ffhillclimber on Jan 6, 2008 13:59:37 GMT -5
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