24 Hour Logistics Question

[jbyrd]

damnyankee38 said:

I have COMPLETE faith in you Shane!!! You'll make sure the grid workers will get us out. Personally, I am looking forward to this event!!

No one is questioning Shane's abilities.

[jbyrd]

specvinsc said:

These logistical "problems" are the very reason I(and Teresa) will NOT be attending. I too tried last year to treat this event as a serious autocross. Left early, registered, walked the track, worked the first two hours, and then I was ready for driving. I took one warm-up lap and then my 5 that counted. Teresa also drove during this time... From the first pass to the last more than 6 hours went by....... And we were IN the two driver line!

Sure there are times when the line isn't as bad...But other times it seems that every car registered is in line! It just takes too long in-between runs!

Those that know me know that I wouldn't be missing a event 'cause I enjoy driving too much.......But, this event(the 24 hours) is just not fun to me.......

Don Bruner , Jr.
Pro 45GS

DJ & Teresa, you will be missed.

[trdriver]

Hmmm...

Well, I'm a little perplexed by this thread.

I haven't been able to do the 24 hour event since the last time it was at Knights. I recall there being more than 130 entires and I don't recall it taking terribly long to circulate thru the line. I definitely don't recall doing 2 runs at a time in small groups of 4 or whatever. I think that would really suck and I strongly object to it. I really don't like making 2 runs without time to get out, check and adjust tire pressure, cool the Azenis, or just make sure nothing came loose, broke or fell off (not that anything ever has) and I sure don't like the idea of going back to the back of the line and waiting while everybody else makes 2 runs. Please tell me we're not doing that this year! or I might rethink doing the first 12 hours.

Aside from that, I'm just suprised there are this many objections to the 24 hour format. I've really been looking forward to this since I figured out how to get out of working that weekend so I could do it.

Cheers,
Jack Mc

[ROADBOY]

I think whether we get 1 run or 2 runs every time up will be up to the event organizer, Steve Rankins. I personally like the idea of 2 runs per time your up, maybe even more would be nice.

You speak of adjustments and cool down. With more runs there will be more time between your runs. A good time for cool down and a chance to mingle with the other enthusiast there. With more runs you also have more time to test your adjustments and see if you like them. I know for myself one run is not enough time for me to see if I like a new setting or if I like the last. With more runs you can look at the average of new times vs old and get a better comparison, that way you know what your next change should be.

About heat and the Azenis. I know that the Azenis is a DOT approved tire. Which means it is designed to handle the rigors of the road and still be safe. I know that driving on the highway for a few miles and regular commuting builds up a lot of heat in a tire, much more than an autocross. I have driven on the RT-215 Azenis and similar tires. I have found that they still grip well if not better with some heat in them, warm rubber is sticky rubber. To much heat is not good either as it will wear out the tires quicker but I don't think we make that much heat in an autocross.

I'm not trying to step on anyones toes with this post just voice my opinion and stick in some possibly useful information.

[trdriver]

I disagree with you about the Azenis - about mine anyway.

Sure its a DOT tire, but was it really designed for anything other than autox?

Mine are the 615s. Last month at The VTR Nationals we had to make all of our runs in groups of 3 or 4 beacuase the host club made no arrangements for a grid area - it was in a Mall parking lot - it was a Friday, the mall was open, there just wasn't a safe way to do it otherwise. there wasn't time to even get out of the car between runs. My tires got noticeably more slippery after every run - after 4 runs the car was practically undrivable. This really sucked and I'm just not going to do it again. Ordinarily, I check tire temp between runs - I know that spraying them with water cools them 20 degrees and I know they handle better if I don't let heat build up in them. I ran on R compound in another car for 2 years, so this is still counter-intuitive to me, but it is the way it is.
Of course it usually takes more than 1 run to judge the effectiveness of a change - and it seems to me that waiting for everybody else to make 2 runs before before i make a 2nd run would mean i get half as many runs as i would otherwise.

Jack Mc

[sleeper]

I've run Azenis RT-215 for three seasons now and at least for my car they always run best when stone cold. More often than not my first run is the best even though I don't know the course as well as the subsequent runs. I use a 2 gallon sprayer and often use the entire fill to get the tires to cool down until they literally feel cold.

[MattP]

I have to agree with Jack's experience. I recently moved to STS2 and am running the 615 Azenis. At my last event, I sprayed the front tires during my competition runs, and didn't notice any fall off on a hot day. However, during fun runs several people drove my car and by the time I drove in 3 or 4 fun runs, the tires were good and hot. They didn't get as noticably greasy as the V710's do in hot weather (and I'm told the 215's were really bad in hot weather as well), but the car was markedly slower on the hot tires. Autocrossing puts a lot more heat into the tires than highway driving in my experience. After two runs, I've had tires that were nearly impossible to keep your hand on for more than a second.

[Silonius]

specvinsc said:

Left early, registered, walked the track, worked the first two hours, and then I was ready for driving. I took one warm-up lap and then my 5 that counted. Teresa also drove during this time... From the first pass to the last more than 6 hours went by

Sure there are times when the line isn't as bad...But other times it seems that every car registered is in line! It just takes too long in-between runs!

Sounds to me like it might be worth waiting until early evening to dead of the night to get in some care-free runs. I think my personal goal is going to be 20+.

Is there going to be timing on every run? Or just the ones that "count"? And will the times be printed on time slips, or should I remember them and jot them down somewhere. "Test 'n' Tune" isn't very useful without times, but you guys know that.

[smetzger]

roadboy said:

I think whether we get 1 run or 2 runs every time up will be up to the event organizer, Steve Rankins. I personally like the idea of 2 runs per time your up, maybe even more would be nice.
.

I also vote for two runs at a time. It allows one to do a warm up run 1st and then take the 2nd one for time.

As for last year, I think the longest I waited between runs was 45 mins. I think I got at least 10 turns which means I did 20+ runs. BTW I only did 1/2 the 24 hrs.

Anyone see the list of Novices? There are 28. Unless the course is very obvious, I think the 2 runs at a time will make it easier on us Novices. The first run used a refresher for the course layout and the 2nd for time, thus less DNFs.

[smetzger]

Silonius said:

specvinsc said:

Is there going to be timing on every run? Or just the ones that "count"? And will the times be printed on time slips, or should I remember them and jot them down somewhere. "Test 'n' Tune" isn't very useful without times, but you guys know that.

Last year they timed every run, but only recorded it if you said it counted.

[trdriver]

smetzger said:

roadboy said:

I think whether we get 1 run or 2 runs every time up will be up to the event organizer, Steve Rankins. I personally like the idea of 2 runs per time your up, maybe even more would be nice.
.

I also vote for two runs at a time. It allows one to do a warm up run 1st and then take the 2nd one for time.

As for last year, I think the longest I waited between runs was 45 mins. I think I got at least 10 turns which means I did 20+ runs. BTW I only did 1/2 the 24 hrs.

Anyone see the list of Novices? There are 28. Unless the course is very obvious, I think the 2 runs at a time will make it easier on us Novices. The first run used a refresher for the course layout and the 2nd for time, thus less DNFs.

Frequently one will not know where one DNFed, so how will going right back out help?
45 minutes between runs? thats insane
I'd much rather make one run every 20 minutes than 2 runs every 40 minutes. If its going to be run like that, I'd like to know ASAP so i needn't bother coming out for the 1st 12 hours.

I wish I'd known about this before I went to so much trouble to get off work.

Jack Mc

[fluid1]

Two runs in a row is not a good idea. It gives those who have R compounds a chance to hold heat better, there is a reason that there is a designated time that you have to wait on re-runs, and it's because of the heat. It kills the street tire people's tires as well...
As for the Azenis.... lol @ Roadboy. Dude, after two runs at a normal autox they are over their heat capacity.

[C4Shane]

Yep - they provided times for each run, but only scored the ones you declare as official. And, yes - it is up to the Event Organizer regarding how many runs you get for each time you come up to the start line. Last year it was two, and I think it is the first and only time we did that. Some folks seemed to really like it and it would appear that others did not.

[MattP]

fluid1 said:

Two runs in a row is not a good idea. It gives those who have R compounds a chance to hold heat better, there is a reason that there is a designated time that you have to wait on re-runs, and it's because of the heat. It kills the street tire people's tires as well...
As for the Azenis.... lol @ Roadboy. Dude, after two runs at a normal autox they are over their heat capacity.

Heat is just as bad for modern autocross compound r-comps (specifically the V710 and the A6 Hoosiers). At the CMS kart track, 2 driver cars were barely getting 5 minutes, and it was a struggle to spray the V710's enough. If you have the Sunday results, you can see the effects of this if you compare my times with Jon K's times. He had to do his back to back with minimal cooling. Jon is a much better driver than me, but could only beat me by a few tenths.

[ROADBOY]

I was just putting my .02 in. I don't know it all, nor do i claim to. Just ignore the post.

[racerjon1]

specvinsc said:

The 24 hours is also a little strange in that you can take 20 runs before you decide to "count' one....
Last time I checked, this is clearly in violation of Solo II rules.

In fairness, the Solo II rules that are published are National level rules. It says in the rulebook that regions are able to make the rules as best fits local needs. Otherwise we can't run a Novice class, or street tire class, or a Pro class, or hand out PAX awards.. we would also have to have impounds, weigh-ins for prepared and modified classes, mandatory bumping of smaller classes into larger ones, etc..

The event is unique.. really, one of the most unique motorsports events in the country. It is a competitive and social event, and I feel that we are lucky to have it close to us. When I tell people in other regions/states about the event, it always brings feelings of jealousy.

Making it a points event, adding in the strategy of predicting what you hope will be your best run, driving while fatigued in some cases, driving in the dark.. makes it all that much more fun.

Jon K

[smetzger]

fluid1 said:

Two runs in a row is not a good idea. It gives those who have R compounds a chance to hold heat better, there is a reason that there is a designated time that you have to wait on re-runs, and it's because of the heat. It kills the street tire people's tires as well...
As for the Azenis.... lol @ Roadboy. Dude, after two runs at a normal autox they are over their heat capacity.

There is a Tire class. If your class allows for R's and you don't have them then run in Tire.

[smetzger]

trdriver said:

Frequently one will not know where one DNFed, so how will going right back out help?
45 minutes between runs? thats insane
I'd much rather make one run every 20 minutes than 2 runs every 40 minutes. If its going to be run like that, I'd like to know ASAP so i needn't bother coming out for the 1st 12 hours.

I wish I'd known about this before I went to so much trouble to get off work.

Jack Mc

That was the longest I waited. I believe once or twice it was zero.

[volksman]

i personally can't wait to do this event. I've been waiting a year since I missed last year. I would like to see one run and wait less than, do two and wait longer. But I plan on being there as much as possible anyway. Greg

[justinhomi]

I'm not a big fan of doing two runs in a row. It pretty much ruins every other run that I take on the azenis, since they overheat so quickly.

[sleeper]

smetzger said:

There is a Tire class. If your class allows for R's and you don't have them then run in Tire.

He should know, he's registered to run in Tire

I vote for 1 run at a time, let's keep the intervals as they have been.

[Imprezivblue]

I like two runs, it gets you in a bit of a rhythm. Your tires have a min or so to cool off between runs so it's not going to be THAT bad. I hate one run at a time. You don't have as much time to gauge what you're doing right/wrong where you can push yourself. I think you learn better with back to back runs. Doing one run and waiting 45 minutes and doing another isn't beneficial.

[C4Shane]

Not that it matters, but I like 2 runs. Part of it is because my tires get much better when hot and aren't worth a darn cold (I am on race slix). But I'll make it work either way. So, it will be interesting to see what we do - it will be fun, no matter what!

[jbyrd]

158 entries so far.......

There will be at least 50 or 60....maybe even 70 more entries than last year. That should help shorten the lines.

[justinhomi]

Maybe, instead of pulled 4-5 cars out of the line at a time, they could do 7-8 cars (or more). That would give us whiners enough time to spray our tires down. It would be nice to have 5min between each run.

Another thing to consider is the fact that there are a lot of people racing this weekend with the purpose of practicing for the Nationals. The SCCA rulebook requires a minimum of 5min between each run (which, I know, can be superseded by local rules). Having tires that are sticking better than normal will cause people to be overconfident down the road. This could be a serious problem for people, such as the Boylands, who run slicks.

[prancingdawg]

there just doesn't ever seem to be enuff to worry oneself about in life...

[prancingdawg]

*ducks*

[prancingdawg]

If it rains as predicted, that will cut attendance as well as runs. Bring your swimsuits just in case.



And as for you wimmens... *winks and wags tail*

[drum3]

I like the 7-8 cars up at a time.I like to adjust air and make changes between runs and 4 cars just wont allow that.

[grey ghost]

all right some logistic facts.

160 entries. needs to work a total of 2 hours every 12. 12hours divided by 2 hours gives us 6 run groups, 160 divided buy 6 run groups is 20 workers out of 160, so a possible 140 drivers (IE not cars,as multiple drivers use the same car. lets say we have 20/2 drivers in the same car running in grid at one time. that reduces the cars on grid by 20 gives us a possible 120 cars. 120 cars divided by 4 grid lines gives us 30 cars by line.

if you pull the complete line blocked off ( so no one sneaks into this line thats moving) IE having a vacant line to pull the competitors back into line would make this work better. as I see it this would require a total of six grid lines, one vacant for both single and multiple drivers to come back to grid after running.

time to run a line 30 cars times 20 seconds between launches at max is 10 minutes a line. in a hour we should be able to get 2.5 runs per hour out. 2.5 runs times 20 constant hours of running should net the average driver. 50 plus runs.

hope you guys see, the logistics. ;D

thanks Rob

PS been a Operation Stewart at Nationals a Few years, they get you to think like this.