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Post by crash477 on Sept 4, 2007 17:08:34 GMT -5
and my vehicle isnt a PAX ringer.. lol a GS mini would be.. lol How is your car not a PAX ringer? What kind of car is winning the National Tour events in STU? My car is! lol it is an STU car..
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Post by ccytrader on Sept 4, 2007 17:34:22 GMT -5
Yeah its either you or an Evo. I suppose that since your pax is a whopping .007 better than a BS pax that lumps you into the ringer category. I suppose all the confusion is cleared up rather quickly when you notice where he parks. ;D
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Post by dstan on Sept 4, 2007 18:21:33 GMT -5
Rob you are so observant and funny , I bet that pic will be changed soon
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Post by trickbrick on Sept 4, 2007 21:39:32 GMT -5
LOL nice one Rob!
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 7:24:10 GMT -5
Yeah its either you or an Evo. I suppose that since your pax is a whopping .007 better than a BS pax that lumps you into the ringer category. I suppose all the confusion is cleared up rather quickly when you notice where he parks. ;D You obviously cannot grasp the concept I'm speaking of. A PAX ringer is any car who is the winning car in it's class, nationally. It has nothing to do, at all, with the multiplier. For example, the 1989 Honda Si is a 'class ringer' in STS much more than a Saturn Wagon, competing in the same class. While they have the same pax multiplier, the Si is a ringer. You team soobie guys are pretty slow.
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 7:28:55 GMT -5
Rob you are so observant and funny , I bet that pic will be changed soon Actually, Rob seems to be the only one at least partially observant. Let me clue you in to something. If you'd look at my avatar, you'd see the term "Miata Eater" under it. Now..... reference the picture that I intentionally took at NTI in the handicapped spot.....look at the Miata in the reflection of the car... hence.... Miata Eater.... P.S. Rob- The Handicapped spot is for the physically challenged. Usually the mentally retarded don't get to drive. And if they do, they get a Mustang.
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Post by ccytrader on Sept 5, 2007 8:15:35 GMT -5
HA! I totally understood and saw the little miata in the belly of your car from the start. I also think that everyone seems to have a different thought on a PAX ringer. Now that you cleared it up with 'class ringer' it makes more sense as to where you are coming from. As originally stated it would be rather easy to make the mistake of thinking you were in fact referring to the true multiplier and not the class winner. It should also be noted that if you want to look for the ringer, sometimes its easy to overlook the mentally challenged in a mustang.
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Post by mattwrx on Sept 5, 2007 8:27:27 GMT -5
Put a skilled driver in any car, it will go fast. I mean... look at John in the Kia!
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 8:55:30 GMT -5
HA! I totally understood and saw the little miata in the belly of your car from the start. I also think that everyone seems to have a different thought on a PAX ringer. Now that you cleared it up with 'class ringer' it makes more sense as to where you are coming from. As originally stated it would be rather easy to make the mistake of thinking you were in fact referring to the true multiplier and not the class winner. It should also be noted that if you want to look for the ringer, sometimes its easy to overlook the mentally challenged in a mustang. Well I'm extremely challenged in more ways than just mentally..... I realize it.... lol ;D
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Post by crash477 on Sept 5, 2007 9:27:12 GMT -5
Yeah its either you or an Evo. I suppose that since your pax is a whopping .007 better than a BS pax that lumps you into the ringer category. I suppose all the confusion is cleared up rather quickly when you notice where he parks. ;D You obviously cannot grasp the concept I'm speaking of. A PAX ringer is any car who is the winning car in it's class, nationally. It has nothing to do, at all, with the multiplier. For example, the 1989 Honda Si is a 'class ringer' in STS much more than a Saturn Wagon, competing in the same class. While they have the same pax multiplier, the Si is a ringer. You team soobie guys are pretty slow. I dont think you understood your own meaning of PAX ringer. lol What you described earlier was a "Class Ringer" which you pointed out above.. get your nuts together man! lol
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Post by crash477 on Sept 5, 2007 9:27:38 GMT -5
Put a skilled driver in any car, it will go fast. I mean... look at John in the Kia! Very, very true!
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 10:02:55 GMT -5
You obviously cannot grasp the concept I'm speaking of. A PAX ringer is any car who is the winning car in it's class, nationally. It has nothing to do, at all, with the multiplier. For example, the 1989 Honda Si is a 'class ringer' in STS much more than a Saturn Wagon, competing in the same class. While they have the same pax multiplier, the Si is a ringer. You team soobie guys are pretty slow. I dont think you understood your own meaning of PAX ringer. lol What you described earlier was a "Class Ringer" which you pointed out above.. get your nuts together man! lol Steven. Tighten up. Really....... A PAX ringer is exactly what I've said since the start. It is one in the same with a class ringer. Not sure where you're not following. S2000, RX8, STi, 89 Si, ITR, ect, ect, ect. Class ringer= best car in specific class, nationally. Pax ringer= best car in specific class, nationally. Quesions?
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 10:05:51 GMT -5
Let me elaborate.
How is the PAX system even set up? It's set by precedent, and Nationals Results.
So basically, the car make and model that wins in the National events actually helps dictate the next season's PAX.
The STi is one of these cars. When set up well for STU prep, it is a PAX ringer.
[/case]
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Post by ccytrader on Sept 5, 2007 11:03:46 GMT -5
LOL!! Ok, now I only deal with mathematical correlation, cyclical volatility, and cross market dependency studies across various financial markets from here to Hong Kong, so I am far from the smartest guy in any room.
The purpose of PAX is to bring every car class back to a base time of 1.000. Based on your definition of a PAX and Class ringer being one in the same, this couldn't happen for the simple fact that it would negate PAX completely. Now a Class ringer would for sure be something like an Si up against a Saturn wagon, or a Shelby GT up against pretty much any other FS car.
PAX puts the best car from the class to 1.000 vs the best car from another class at 1.000 as well. If what you say is true, there would be no shuffle of a mini to a 'faster' class for next season because it would simply remain a ringer within GS. Taking a GS mini and running STi times constitutes as a PAX ringer since that would place the mini well ahead in something like a team competition where everyones times are PAX value not Raw.
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 11:14:09 GMT -5
LOL!! Ok, now I only deal with mathematical correlation, cyclical volatility, and cross market dependency studies across various financial markets from here to Hong Kong, so I am far from the smartest guy in any room. The purpose of PAX is to bring every car class back to a base time of 1.000. Based on your definition of a PAX and Class ringer being one in the same, this couldn't happen for the simple fact that it would negate PAX completely. Now a Class ringer would for sure be something like an Si up against a Saturn wagon, or a Shelby GT up against pretty much any other FS car. PAX puts the best car from the class to 1.000 vs the best car from another class at 1.000 as well. If what you say is true, there would be no shuffle of a mini to a 'faster' class for next season because it would simply remain a ringer within GS. Taking a GS mini and running STi times constitutes as a PAX ringer since that would place the mini well ahead in something like a team competition where everyones times are PAX value not Raw. You deal with too many variables at work, that must be why you try to add too many here. Let's take the basics just a step further. Those cars who have the most of their own make and model in the top 10 at Nationals are even more of a class and a pax ringer. The AM Shark is obviously one of these, but there's only one known to man, AFAIK. The ITR and the S2000 are types of ultimate ringers. The STi in STU is not far off at all.... Or you can look at STS class. Before last year, the 1989 Si was the 'ringer' and won year after year.....but it's not like you can add it to STX, or anything else. Stock class vs. STU or STS or anything is not a fair comparison. Cars get reclassed in Stock classes MUCH more than they do in SP, P, M, T classes. Being a Mensa member since age 12, I must not be the smartest in the room either.
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Post by ccytrader on Sept 5, 2007 11:39:58 GMT -5
Maybe I am not seeing straight today, I am trying to take a week off from working which really means I sneak in about 40 hours in a short week. If the above statement is true then it would actually hurt their pax value more than help it.
Now I had to turn to my trusty friend the urban dictionary for a solid definition on ringer.
Any type of contestant in a game who is entered in order to cheat.
Now in the land of PAX results, I STILL don't get how team Subaru had a PAX ringer with a National Level prepared STU car since that is where the PAX value comes from.
That is from the SoloII novice handbook from Tire Rack. Granted their PAX chart is from 1998 in the example but I am sure the theory hasn't changed.
As for Mensa, Donald Petersen is a member too.
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 11:57:54 GMT -5
If you need a dictionary and have to reference the Solo book, then I've lost you hours ago. But, being a novice, I'll let you reference the SCCA forum and ask them what they think a class ringer is. I guarantee that no one will reference 'cheating' or whatever Merriam told you it was. So..... what exactly are you trying to argue? Fact: the STi in STU is the perfect car to have, for that class, and for Pax. Do your worst........
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Post by ccytrader on Sept 5, 2007 12:04:21 GMT -5
For starters, it was clearly stated that the definition came from the urban dictionary, a source FAR from academic. Secondly, there is a distinct difference between class ringer and pax ringer. An STi in STU holds the class by the nuts but far from taking over in the land of a pax time. The whole point is the bring each car and class back to a base value to compare cars times based on the limit of the solo rules. And since you dont use pax within your own STU class, an STi gains nothing in pax by being over produced, bought, and run in national level events. Man they WILL let anyone join for $50 a year! I am out.
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 12:08:16 GMT -5
Maybe I am not seeing straight today, I am trying to take a week off from working which really means I sneak in about 40 hours in a short week. If the above statement is true then it would actually hurt their pax value more than help it. Please enlighten me to your thinking here, because it's the polar opposite of reality. If a specific car takes the top 10 spots in it's class, then it is quite obvious that it is the car to have in that class. Hence the term I use loosely: 'ringer' This means that this car has a much better chance of having an accurate PAX in relation to the A-Mod car. For a few reasons. This directly means that it is a class and pax ringer. How could it possibly mean the opposite?
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 12:17:41 GMT -5
For starters, it was clearly stated that the definition came from the urban dictionary, a source FAR from academic. Secondly, there is a distinct difference between class ringer and pax ringer. An STi in STU holds the class by the nuts but far from taking over in the land of a pax time. The whole point is the bring each car and class back to a base value to compare cars times based on the limit of the solo rules. And since you dont use pax within your own STU class, an STi gains nothing in pax by being over produced, bought, and run in national level events. Man they WILL let anyone join for $50 a year! I am out. Sorry Junior, you're incorrect. I'm not sure why you can't see the forest through the trees. Class ringer = pax ringer. SPECIFICALLY when the car has a saturation of that same make and model in the top 10. Each year they 'try' to make the classes equal with the PAX system. This means, in an of itself, that the make and model of the winning car is not only the winner of the specific class, but it is used as a benchmark to modify the PAX from the previous year. Thusly MAKING THE CAR A PAX RINGER. I'll say it again if you'd like. $50? LOL Try an intensive 4 year program sponsored by Duke university. Questioning my intelligence is something I'll be sure to bring up to you in person, the next time I see you. I hope you are as terse then as you seem to be now. When breaking into the SCCA, who do you think will have a better opportunity to get a batter PAX time? Example 1: Saturn Wagon in STS. Example 2: 1989 Civic Si in STS. One of them is both a class ringer, and a pax ringer. (even though the 240 took it this past year) Perhaps I should use another word other than 'ringer' to ease your mind? Because nothing else seems to work. Being that PAX is calculated yearly, and it used both a culmination of past years results as well as the present year's, it is nearly impossible to find any car, any make, any model, any class, that will step up and be a TRUE PAX changer, like the Miata and S2000 once did. Now that they have been reclassed apporpriately based on years and results, as is the typical process. I don't see the STi being reclassed any more than I see any other car being reclassed currently. I know they are thinking about the MINI a lot, and this, to me, is the next 'pax mover' like the S2000 and Miata. I think we may be disagreeing on something that we are technically not disagreeing on: I do not believe the STi should be classed OUT of STU. It just happens to be the best car for the class. Thusly reinforcing my original, and only, point. Two drivers in the ringer STi.
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Post by dstan on Sept 5, 2007 12:43:07 GMT -5
In other words if you want a better chance of winning buy a STi!!!
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 13:02:28 GMT -5
In other words if you want a better chance of winning buy a STi!!! When specc'd out to STU prep, yes, it gives me a better chance of winning than in any class my Z would go into.
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Post by crash477 on Sept 5, 2007 13:54:29 GMT -5
I think where we are differing is our definition of pax ringer and class ringer.. I agree with you about class ringer, which is one car that is the car to have for that class. Now, when I hear PAX ringer, I think of a car that PAX's extremely well, like a GS Mini. which has nothing do with its class, aside from the PAX index. STi's PAX horribly on a National level. Look at the PAX results from any tour or Pro Solo and you wont see an STi at the top.
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 14:21:14 GMT -5
I think where we are differing is our definition of pax ringer and class ringer.. I agree with you about class ringer, which is one car that is the car to have for that class. Now, when I hear PAX ringer, I think of a car that PAX's extremely well, like a GS Mini. which has nothing do with its class, aside from the PAX index. STi's PAX horribly on a National level. Look at the PAX results from any tour or Pro Solo and you wont see an STi at the top. I see what you are saying. That goes along with what I was saying about the Miata, S2000, and Mini. The S2000 and Miatas have been reclassed a few times, to try and find their best fit in a class, and PAX, in relation to the other classes. Being that the PAX system is set up to make everything equal, hypothetically speaking, all of the class ringers should be pax ringers on an equal level. Being that the Minis are usually (in a field of drivers who all have substantial experience and have their cars specc'd out to their class) pulling the best PAX times. Of course, the Minis are the car that has the most talk about moving classes, specifically because of it's slight PAX dominance. At the same time, you'd have to agree that the STi is much more of a PAX ringer than, say, any other car that is classed into STU. If the pax system were perfect (which it is not, and cannot ever be, technically) then each year, the results of Nationals would have each class winner, after PAX, having the exact same time. The dynamics of human operators prevents this. This 'perfect world of PAX' would better support the fact that the make and model of the winning car in a specific class is also the PAX ringer for that specific class.
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Post by lancer360 on Sept 5, 2007 14:35:10 GMT -5
You can have a car that is the most competitive car in the class and not be a pax ringer if the pax for that class is theoretically set correctly. That is the way I'm reading what Crash is saying. The Sti may be the car to have in STU, but the pax for STU may be set at a point that prevents the pax time from being artificially high when compared to other classes. Being that PAX is a statistical number calculated from hundreds of events each year, it will never be perfect it will always lag at least a year behind since you have to run the events with the cars and then calculate the pax after the season is over. If you really wanted to get accurate with the pax times it makes more sense to apply the pax adjusters from this year to last seasons results. Of course nobody would be willing to wait that long for the results of the pax classes so we have to take the pax calculated from the previous years results and apply it to this year.
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Post by MattP on Sept 5, 2007 14:38:32 GMT -5
Speaking of, hasn't Michael Bright's 350Z set fast pax at CCR a couple times when it was still in BS?
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 14:42:19 GMT -5
Speaking of, hasn't Michael Bright's 350Z set fast pax at CCR a couple times when it was still in BS? I'm not sure about PAX, I would have to assume that he did, because he got FTD a few times. Good driving, Mike. My goal is exactly that for next year. The best that a Z has ever done at Nationals was last year when Carter Thompson took 2nd. He was the only non- RX-8 in the top 10, IIRC. And in 2005 the highest Z was 8th. Again, all others were the RX-8. Jason Isley won both years. While I love CCR, we're not National level competitors in each class. But you two have given us good hope. We are going to replicate your idea for next year, when I drive PBS, and Steve drives BS. And you can call us out on it every race, even though the Z is not the class ringer. (add to that I have the Base model, no LSD, not competative nationally to this point)
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Post by grey ghost on Sept 5, 2007 16:42:56 GMT -5
from years of watching pax numbers, they are weighted for National type events with a higher average speed, and courses that allow horsepower difference in between classes to show up. Most local events are a speed maintenance type courses, so cars with lower acceleration characteristics will do good, as they don't have to change speed too much. and most courses are about transitions verses long sweepers like you find at nationals.
IMO, the Street tire group of cars have a better pax allowance this year. they got a Better tire this year, verses the R-comp cars, with the new Bridgestone, I have heard guy say they were worth .5 to a full second over last years tire,
thanks Rob.
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Post by fluid1 on Sept 5, 2007 21:53:30 GMT -5
Interesting perspective, thanks Rob!
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Post by dstan on Sept 5, 2007 23:26:48 GMT -5
When specc'd out to STU prep, yes, it gives me a better chance of winning than in any class my Z would go into. so trade the Z for a STi and have fun winning again I have fun being 2nd every time, Damn NFS mustangs!!!! Rob is my Nemesis!! but a great Guy Dave
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