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Post by srduck on Mar 20, 2013 17:32:20 GMT -5
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axex
New Member
Posts: 26
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Post by axex on Mar 20, 2013 18:03:21 GMT -5
Wow! Thanks for posting. As someone who has recently joined the sport I have had trouble wrapping my head around the classes (particularly the stock one) and why some things are the way they are. A lot of my newbie friends agree and I think this will make things more fun for us.
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Post by srduck on Mar 20, 2013 18:14:16 GMT -5
A lot of my newbie friends agree and I think this will make things more fun for us. Meanwhile in SRSBZNSland, heads are exploding over this  There is rage on a level you nor I can even comprehend. Grab the popcorn... this gonna get good!! Honestly.... it's a drastic change, but it's probably one that needed to be made. "Stock" class never really made sense to me, either. It needs some tweaking, obviously... but there's time to hash out more details and deal with the outrage. As someone who owns one of those strut cars with ZERO camber adjustment and just sold another with the problem, I like the fact that I can get camber plates and not completely destroy tires.... but, I don't think that needs to be on an "entry level" class. Time will tell. In the meantime, sit back and watch everyone do this:  |
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Mar 20, 2013 19:55:56 GMT -5
Stock classes made sense twenty years ago, before R-comps and thousand dollar shocks.
This Street proposal might actually work better than Stock as an entry level class. Beginners find competitors in "stock" classes are allowed changes (notably tires and shocks) that can make several seconds advantage over factory-stock. The restrictions on tires and shocks in Street should actually REDUCE the performance gap compared with factory-stock, which may level the car part of the equation for beginners. (Most still need to learn to drive, though!) And, as a side benefit, it might even be less expensive than the existing Stock allowances. (That's assuming the tire manufacturers can actually resist the temptation to write a 200 treadwear rating on the side of an R-comp tire. Considering what happened over the years to tires for Stock and Street Touring, that remains to be seen.)
I agree: This is going to get interesting!
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Post by 1slowcrx on Mar 20, 2013 20:54:16 GMT -5
SRSBZNS is only serious if you want it to be... That said... this one can be summed up in a picture  I think it's mostly a good thing. My biggest concern, like most in "SRSBZNSLAND" is what happens in SS. We'll see how this pans out. |
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Post by z3elda on Mar 20, 2013 22:51:19 GMT -5
I've already chatted with one person who says it doesn't go far enough. In his mind, "street" should mean 300+ Treadwear tires, basically eliminating the need for an extra set of rims and dedicated autocross rubber. That closes the cost gap as well as the performance gap.
IMO - It is a serious step in the right direction, and should help attract and keep first timers coming.
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Post by 1slowcrx on Mar 20, 2013 23:30:01 GMT -5
As someone who drove on 300+ treadwear tires for the first two years I autocrossed. I think 300+ is absolutely the worst idea EVER. 300+ tires are not and will never be designed for the abuse autocrossing puts on a tire. They chunk, they overheat, they just plain suck to drive on. Sure 30 run life hoosiers is a bad bad thing, but 300+ is just as bad.
just my experience, your mileage may vary
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Post by 05astock on Mar 21, 2013 0:10:06 GMT -5
Stock classes made sense twenty years ago, before R-comps and thousand dollar shocks. This Street proposal might actually work better than Stock as an entry level class. Beginners find competitors in "stock" classes are allowed changes (notably tires and shocks) that can make several seconds advantage over factory-stock. The restrictions on tires and shocks in Street should actually REDUCE the performance gap compared with factory-stock, which may level the car part of the equation for beginners. (Most still need to learn to drive, though!) And, as a side benefit, it might even be less expensive than the existing Stock allowances. (That's assuming the tire manufacturers can actually resist the temptation to write a 200 treadwear rating on the side of an R-comp tire. Considering what happened over the years to tires for Stock and Street Touring, that remains to be seen.) I agree: This is going to get interesting! The way I see how stock class was thought of, -The fastest car, regardless of tires. Then along came a guy that beat someone but it was because he had to replace his shocks, so then replacement shocks were allowed and then that evolved into remote reservoir, double adjusting etc... And the same thing for exhausts. So if it were strictly tires, the. I think the original stock class makes perfect sense, but everyone wants more more more. I thinks they should keep SS and anyone under the street rules that's wants to run Hoosiers has to run in SS. |
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Post by lilgunny on Mar 21, 2013 6:04:32 GMT -5
I agree with some of this in principle...but cutting strut towers for camber changes, and both bars allowed, not sure about that. Could get out of hand. And letting people 'adjust" their ECU to eliminate TCS and such is opening up a "WHOLE" other can of worms. But I applaud the SEB for trying to adress the issues. I think it will ultimatly be better in long run, but needs some tweeking...
Just my .02 cents worth
LilGunny
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Post by integra55 on Mar 21, 2013 6:45:44 GMT -5
quite frankly I couldn't care less what they do with stock .... I don't run stock... I've never run stock... and I don't plan on ever running stock ... and by that I guess you can figure out that STREET doesn't mean a thing to me ... take a survey ... whatever ..... BUT LEAVE ST ALONE ....we've gotten along on 140 tires for a long long time , + all the other "hidden" take backs, whether intended or not ... LEAVE ST ALONE ....
that is all ... thank you
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rapidbutterfly
Junior Member
una donna che conosce il suo posto
Posts: 94 
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Post by rapidbutterfly on Mar 21, 2013 7:06:01 GMT -5
I agree; hope they leave ST* alone, as it is IMO a class family that works. I'm sure this new "street" class family will have "fun" effects on PAX. But then I am not PAX's biggest fan either.
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Post by Frodo on Mar 21, 2013 7:47:02 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the wa I read it, it sounds like they removed treadware restricion from ST classes. So does that mean Hoosiers and R-Comps are now allowed in ST classes. Or did they just move the clarification to this new Street class and put a note that says otherwise stated the tire limitiations are same as Street?
And Stock class hasn't been Stock for a while it seems. The term Stock implies that the car is unmodified and the same as when it left the showroom/dealer. Allowing modifications to the car defeats it's purpose. And allowing Hoosiers and R-Comps in stock?? Who ever thought that was stock???
Make a Stock class that is what it's called: STOCK!
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Post by srduck on Mar 21, 2013 7:54:11 GMT -5
They removed the tire definitions in ST and pointed them to the "Street" class tire definitions, which means if this passes, in 2015 the ST* classes will have to run 200tw tires.
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Post by Frodo on Mar 21, 2013 7:55:52 GMT -5
Well thank fully the Direzza/ZII has always been a 200 treadware tire.
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Post by srduck on Mar 21, 2013 7:59:33 GMT -5
Well thank fully the Direzza/ZII has always been a 200 treadware tire.  ^^^^^^^ ----------------- ^^^^^^^ Toyo drivers ----------------- Frodo |
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Post by Frodo on Mar 21, 2013 8:05:38 GMT -5
 Haters gonna hate... |
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Post by jprice130 on Mar 21, 2013 8:59:34 GMT -5
Wow, that is quite a proposal for Stock. Like many newcomers, I was also very confused about the whole r-comp allowance in stock classes, so I like the idea of moving toward a 200 treadwear minimum.
In addition, I like the new allowances for camber adjustment so that we don't have to worry about ruining our brand new tires in half the time because the stock camber adjustment sucks butt. Not crazy about the allowance for changing both sway bars though. Changing one bar was good enough.
I know this proposal is partly in response to declining participation in stock, but the one exception to this at the National level is definitely SS. SS has been huge, so I can see the SS folks having a major problem with this. Given that, I like Adam's idea for allowing r-comps in SS and let everyone run there rather than doing the "Limited Prep" classing. You want to run r-comps on your stock car? Great! Sign up for SS!
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Post by turtle8 on Mar 21, 2013 9:00:26 GMT -5
About the UTQG of tires - since the manufacturers are the ones grading tires, they will probably simply change the numbers on the sidewall. I am glad they decided not to put my tires on the exclusion list.
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Post by srduck on Mar 21, 2013 9:00:45 GMT -5
Yeah.... right now the SS guys are furious.
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Post by integra55 on Mar 21, 2013 9:43:45 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the wa I read it, it sounds like they removed treadware restricion from ST classes. So does that mean Hoosiers and R-Comps are now allowed in ST classes. Or did they just move the clarification to this new Street class and put a note that says otherwise stated the tire limitiations are same as Street? no .... what they've done ( among other things ) is change the tread wear rating (that's worked for yrs) from 140 to 200 ... no more Toyo's or RS 3's ... I guess SCCA has bought stock in BFG & DUNLOP ;D |
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Post by integra55 on Mar 21, 2013 9:46:24 GMT -5
About the UTQG of tires - since the manufacturers are the ones grading tires, they will probably simply change the numbers on the sidewall. I am glad they decided not to put my tires on the exclusion list. while that's close, that's not exactly how it works .. it's a long explanation, and I don't have the link to said explanation handy ... but you are close |
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Post by srduck on Mar 21, 2013 10:01:47 GMT -5
About the UTQG of tires - since the manufacturers are the ones grading tires, they will probably simply change the numbers on the sidewall. I am glad they decided not to put my tires on the exclusion list. while that's close, that's not exactly how it works .. it's a long explanation, and I don't have the link to said explanation handy ... but you are close As I understand it, the testing involves driving around in West Texas for several thousand miles, monitoring tire pressures and rotating tires as necessary. The "control" tire against which they are all graded is (was?) the Uniroyal TigerPaw. Wear is measured and data extrapolated on how the tire wears in relation to the control tire. Then, after the testing is completed and all data collected, manufacturers stamp whatever the heck they want on the side of the tire and call it a day  |
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Post by integra55 on Mar 21, 2013 11:51:09 GMT -5
sorta .... they have a tire that has been graded ( I'm assuming by the method you described ) then all the tires they make of a particular type are somehow graded against that control tire ... all this to say Hoosier can't just cut some grooves into an A6 and call it a 200tw tire ... same for the R1R and the RS3 ... there would have to be some quantitatively verifiable changes to market the "same" tire with a different tw rating
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Post by CoolGuy094 on Mar 21, 2013 12:48:05 GMT -5
If this change occurs, I can almost guarantee that the Hankook RS-4 and Toyo R2R will be 200tw rated. They aren't stupid; they will lose a ton of market share to Dunlop, etc. (which they already are) and will find a way to make that change... regardless of whether they change their thread pattern or compound at all.
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Post by SE3P on Mar 21, 2013 15:37:58 GMT -5
^You know something I don't?
RS-4 and R2R.
Lol.
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Post by srduck on Mar 21, 2013 16:08:58 GMT -5
I think it's a safe bet that there will be a successor to the RS-3 and R1R.... and an equally safe bet that they will magically hit that 200tw rating required.
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Post by CoolGuy094 on Mar 21, 2013 16:26:44 GMT -5
^You know something I don't? RS-4 and R2R. Lol. You know what I was getting at; or at least Duck did. LOL. |
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Post by SE3P on Mar 21, 2013 19:44:43 GMT -5
But R2R just doesn't sound cool. That's like...Ready 2 Race... Ready 2 Rumble... Just giving you a hard time  |
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Post by stealthgtfour on Mar 21, 2013 20:15:50 GMT -5
hoosier has gotta be pissssssseeedddd!!!!
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Post by stealthgtfour on Mar 21, 2013 20:17:36 GMT -5
either that or they'll soon be in the "street tire" market
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There is rage on a level you nor I can even comprehend. Grab the popcorn... this gonna get good!!
