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Post by integra55 on Dec 6, 2013 9:11:39 GMT -5
I may be way off base here, But I thought run groups were set up to have a somewhat equal amount of drivers which in turn leads to enough coverage for work assignments. I could see where there may occur an unbalance in the "force". Unlikely but probable. to the best of my knowledge … you are correct trying to always group like mod cars in the same run group WILL cause problems on some occasions |
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Dec 6, 2013 20:31:44 GMT -5
I may be way off base here, But I thought run groups were set up to have a somewhat equal amount of drivers which in turn leads to enough coverage for work assignments. I could see where there may occur an unbalance in the "force". Unlikely but probable. to the best of my knowledge … you are correct trying to always group like mod cars in the same run group WILL cause problems on some occasions True, Walter. It's already causing a minor issue. Together, the Pro, Inter, Tire, and Novice classes can account for half the entries at an event. To balance the work groups, cars within a given Category (ex:ST) are often split between run-groups to maintain the numerical balance, since it's not practical to split any of those four big classes. That makes it harder for us to compare ourselves with others in our category. I don't know that I would rank it as a big problem, but it is somewhat less than ideal. I'd like to think there is some way to balance the run-groups without splitting categories as we do now, but it doesn't come to mind. Maybe someone who's closer to the issue can suggest a plan. I sure would like to see all the Preps (my category, of course) in one run-group, whether or not we all run in the same event class or the same year-end class. And I suspect you might like seeing all the Street Touring drivers in one run-group if it can be done without imbalancing the worker pool. One thought: If we go to a Novice program with no Novice championship, we could ask the novices to run with their base class, or perhaps put part of them in one run-group and part in another. That would keep us from having a slew of novices working at the same time, and would allow the new folks to spend more time with the more experienced drivers. It might also allow some flexibility for balancing run-groups. Granted, some might complain that conditions are not equal for everyone in the Novice class. But, except when one run group gets rain and another gets dry, I don't think the conditions are that much a factor in the outcome of Novice class anyway. |
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Post by integra55 on Dec 6, 2013 20:39:16 GMT -5
to the best of my knowledge … you are correct trying to always group like mod cars in the same run group WILL cause problems on some occasions True, Walter. It's already causing a minor issue. Together, the Pro, Inter, Tire, and Novice classes can account for half the entries at an event. To balance the work groups, cars within a given Category (ex:ST) are often split between run-groups to maintain the numerical balance, since it's not practical to split any of those four big classes. That makes it harder for us to compare ourselves with others in our category. I don't know that I would rank it as a big problem, but it is somewhat less than ideal. I'd like to think there is some way to balance the run-groups without splitting categories as we do now, but it doesn't come to mind. Maybe someone who's closer to the issue can suggest a plan. I sure would like to see all the Preps (my category, of course) in one run-group, whether or not we all run in the same event class or the same year-end class. And I suspect you might like seeing all the Street Touring drivers in one run-group if it can be done without imbalancing the worker pool. One thought: If we go to a Novice program with no Novice championship, we could ask the novices to run with their base class, or perhaps put part of them in one run-group and part in another. That would keep us from having a slew of novices working at the same time, and would allow the new folks to spend more time with the more experienced drivers. It might also allow some flexibility for balancing run-groups. Granted, some might complain that conditions are not equal for everyone in the Novice class. But, except when one run group gets rain and another gets dry, I don't think the conditions are that much a factor in the outcome of Novice class anyway. actually, no, I really don't care what the other ST classes do …. I compete in STS (or at least I try to) and I check where I fall in the Raw results, (without regard to what class the drivers are in that are faster …) that's pretty much it |
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Post by matthugie on Dec 6, 2013 21:41:12 GMT -5
One thought: If we go to a Novice program with no Novice championship, we could ask the novices to run with their base class, or perhaps put part of them in one run-group and part in another. That would keep us from having a slew of novices working at the same time, and would allow the new folks to spend more time with the more experienced drivers. It might also allow some flexibility for balancing run-groups. Granted, some might complain that conditions are not equal for everyone in the Novice class. But, except when one run group gets rain and another gets dry, I don't think the conditions are that much a factor in the outcome of Novice class anyway. Novices currently run with their base class. If we have novice-heavy classes that get grouped together it can be a bit of an issue work-wise, but generally it seems to work pretty well. |
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Post by drum3 on Dec 7, 2013 8:13:51 GMT -5
As suggested , I think a hybrid class system could work . Group like mod groups together . If a particular Class has 3 or more year long participants ( or event participants) then that Class gets pulled from the Results and stands as its own class . If a Class has less than 3 competitors , then it stays in the Pax group .
SCCA actually has a BUMP formula that would group Classes with less than 3 competitors together . This BUMP order simply moved the low attendance Class up to the next available Class , No PAX , you just had to run Raw time vs the faster class . I think Pax is more fair than throwing a slower car into a faster class .
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Dec 7, 2013 10:03:16 GMT -5
[/quote]Novices currently run with their base class. If we have novice-heavy classes that get grouped together it can be a bit of an issue work-wise, but generally it seems to work pretty well.[/quote]
Thanks for the correction on Novices running with their base class. Matt. We've done it both ways over the years, and I lost track. (Obviously I'm not paying enough attention to the novices!)
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Post by Frodo on Dec 7, 2013 16:51:44 GMT -5
(Obviously I'm not paying enough attention to the novices!) Or at Driver's meetings... |
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Post by zerocool on Dec 7, 2013 19:03:15 GMT -5
I think a novice program is an awesome idea! I started this year and found it difficult to find a "mentor" to give advice with more than just driving. I would suggest trying to pair first timers with a year long mentor. A year long mentoring program would be great not just for driving, but also learning all the aspects of solo. This mentor could help guide the the novice thru a work program including timing, grid, safety, course set-up, etc.
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Post by stealthgtfour on Dec 8, 2013 11:03:54 GMT -5
the only thing that matters to me with respect to this issue is making sure we are growing the club.
that should be our main focus. more entrants having a freakin blast. I don't want to see the novice
class with 60+ entrants tied for last at seasons end because they only raced once and never came back.
im sure there are many reasons for this and im not going to point fingers or speculate
on that. what I do want to see is better retention of new customers. whatever that takes.
I think every member should be committed to helping the up and comers. I have some ideas
and there will be a few tweaks to the process next year, im sure. don't worry we all love this
crazy sport and always wish it to be fun for all!
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Post by Donutz on Dec 8, 2013 23:09:21 GMT -5
^this. Cut and dry, plain and simple. No season this or class that. Retention has always been a drum people have beat on this time of year since I've gotten involved and not much has changed with the retention rate. We've had a large handful come and stay but not nearly enough. I'm not saying people aren't doing a good job because that'd be an absolute farce but I think a lot of people get wrapped up in the nitty gritty of things and aren't as well rounded on the issues that keep the club and it's SOLO program feasible (though that is in part because they are paying attention to what keeps it awesome for them). Looking forward to 2014, I know it's been a long season for everyone involved with putting on the events and they all deserve to be commended for the job they've done; it isn't easy getting a venue like zMax in the first place and then running 200 cars through it but it's something that we've managed to master, and 2014 should be an impressive year for CCR, as having people running the show that have gotten it down as well as CCR has can only lead to great events
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Post by SkudRacer17 on Dec 11, 2013 16:16:00 GMT -5
On the topic of similar mod PAX classes, I think it is an idea worthy of some attention. If it is possible to keep track of points in both the old style and with similar mod classes for a couple of events, maybe even half season, a more informed decision could be reached and give people the option to vote. Could a survey question be added to registration? ex. Do you think classes should be combined for similar mod pax classes. A = Yes B = No C = I don't care D = How do I autoX?!?
As far as venues for the 2014 season. Has anyone ever looked into the Cabarrus Arena? I know they have had big car shows and drift events there. And did I hear someone say that Carowinds resurfaced their parking lot since the last event held there?
Food for thought...
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Post by yellow CR on Dec 11, 2013 19:09:16 GMT -5
We're meeting up Saturday and we will discuss the possibility of doing results for both open and like modded PAX classes at the same time. If it is possible, I think this is a way of keeping everyone happy.
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Dec 11, 2013 19:26:52 GMT -5
On the topic of similar mod PAX classes, I think it is an idea worthy of some attention. If it is possible to keep track of points in both the old style and with similar mod classes for a couple of events, maybe even half season, a more informed decision could be reached... See Joe Price's post on page 1 of this thread, about the ninth item from the top. He calculated what the results would have been in each of the proposed classes, using actual data from the 2013 season. It's an interesting piece of work. With a few exceptions, the really fast folks that were at the top of the list with the existing system (National classes) are the same ones that would have been at the top of the list with the category-based classes (e.g. Prep, Mod, Street Prep.) There are just more drivers in each class with the proposed system. For comparison, see the 2013 champions thread, or the results-and-points thread. If it ever came to a yes/no vote, it would be a hard call for me. I like the idea of bigger classes. But some folks REALLY like their existing classes. For example, XP (the class I'm running) is a hoot just the way it is. And those who want a bigger class do have options such as Inter and Pro. As Josh said, ultimately this should be about having a good time. I'm going to have a good time either way this goes, so I defer to those with stronger preferences. This proposal was raised late last-year, possibly too late for full discussion. This year, the proposal was raised much earlier. This forum gives folks a chance to make their preferences known. |
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Post by SkudRacer17 on Dec 11, 2013 20:09:12 GMT -5
If we do switch to this system it may be the motivation I need to finally prep my car for its class. lol
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Post by ball80 on Dec 12, 2013 19:47:26 GMT -5
Well I think it's about time I throw my 2 cents in.
First I'm sorry I haven't been active as much as I'd like. Due to getting married. Promotion at work, buying a house and now finding out that me and Stella are expecting a future racer in July. This year has been crazy.
Ill start with the one thing that meant a lot to me. Novice Championship. As the guy who won it last year by splitting hairs. I'm for this. I think there is away to combine the idea put forth with a championship. What made me come to every event last year was the fact I knew I was competing for something. It gave me a reason to wake up at 4 am to do waivers with Andy and Alan ( He's pretty peppy in the morning so that helped a ton). I got to experience competing with the legendary Joe Price. You take the competition. You take the fun.
Next,
This is where I may offend some people, let me first start off by saying its not directed at any one person and I hope not to anger anyone.
this topic of combining classes came up last year. I stood on the side with Walter Jones, a man I respect greatly, I offered up the idea of the intermediate class. A portal for those who were not ready for the major league but wanted to compete more. The thing I saw was that there were true pro class drivers dropping down to this class because of one issue or another. This wasn't the spirit that the class was made for. If they had issues where driving pro class wasn't feasible. Then STO or open class would have been better. But when you stack the deck in intermediate class and then someone who normally runs 4 or 5th in class is now at 13 or 14th. That's a little bit of a downer. The SCCA has developed classes for cars so that people could race in like cars. I don't think as a club we have a right to demand that anyone race with us either be in some combined pax class or just not race. That's not fair to myself or Walter jones or anyone else who hasn't spoken up. There are ways to increase return drivers. If people are ok running open class and being the only one to win a trophy that's there right. They pay the money for each event just like everyone else. If they decide to change up there's always pax class options for them.
I think once and for all we need to put a end to this instead of bringing It up every December.
Thank you all and I look forward to seeing you in 2014!!!
(Note. There were no feelings harmed in the writing of this post)
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Post by drum3 on Dec 13, 2013 18:19:13 GMT -5
The thing I saw was that there were true pro class drivers dropping down to this class because of one issue or another. This wasn't the spirit that the class was made for. If they had issues where driving pro class wasn't feasible. The SCCA has developed classes for cars so that people could race in like cars. I don't think as a club we have a right to demand that anyone race with us either be in some combined pax class or just not race. That's not fair to myself or Walter jones or anyone else who hasn't spoken up. First , those that dropped from Pro to Intermediate were usually only driving Pro because their Class had no competitors or they were co-driving with a Pro driver . They felt they were not ready for Pro Class and only did so because that was the only option for any competition . They found their spot when Intermediate came up. Next , The SCCA Classing structure also has a bumping system built in where classes with 3 or less competitors gets bumped to the next fastest class . Would you prefer running against a faster class heads up OR in a Pax based class ? And we force them to run in the current classes , whats the difference in having Raw time classes that must run in vs Pax Classes that you must run in ?? Its all just a classing structure , its still the same cars on the same course and the fast drivers are STILL going to be the fast drivers . |
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Post by jprice130 on Dec 13, 2013 22:16:00 GMT -5
I got to experience competing with the legendary Joe Price. Ha, ha! This cracked me up. At first I was upset that you didn't agree with me on the prep-based PAX class ideas, but since you think I'm "legendary", I'll let it slide...  We definitely had some good times in Novice class last year and I sincerely hope that you'll be able to race more next season. It's nice to see you come back to stir up the forums and talk junk like old times. I may have stolen your "Spin Cycle" nickname, but I'll never take your title for "Chief of Sh*t Talking"! Anyway, it sounds like the sun is setting on anything changing for next season and that's totally cool. My suggestions and "what if" scenarios were just an effort to bring more fun to the club and were not meant to create division or serve a personal agenda/benefit. I think all of us would prefer to run without PAX if competition numbers could support it, so at least we're all united on that. Even still, I think it would be fun to maintain the prep-based points for the hell of it (with or without a season-ending trophy). I'm more than happy to take on management of auditing/posting results and maintaining season points if it would ease some of the burden our leaders have. |
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Post by apexemall on Dec 14, 2013 9:33:48 GMT -5
Good discussion.
I like the idea of a novice championship. In my novice season, I had a great competitive experience very much like "Spin Cycle". I helped sway the decision to leave it like it is the last time the subject came up. I run in Atlanta frequently, and their novice program seems to work for them, but there are many inexperienced drivers who are thrown into open classes long before they are ready to compete. I would find this very frustrating.
I run in STX because that is my prep level. I compare my times to the STX pros every event, and when I have a snowballs chance in .... of competing, I will move up. Until then I like the I class. In addition to the direct competition, it allows multiple cars to be run within class. I was unsure last year, but plan to go there next season if it is still there.
Some people do not like PAX, and it is definitely not precise, but anyone who wants to see how he really drove that day can see at a glance. When I have a bad day, it shows in the PAX ranking. A good day shows likewise.
Looking for another great season with a great club.
Clyde Stahl
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Post by philip1 on Dec 15, 2013 20:38:27 GMT -5
I will be competing in the very tight XP class, it also has one of the worst pax multipliers. That said I don't care if run groups are bundled mod, stock, touring etc.. I do like the idea of keeping a novice program but if you win 3 in a row you are moved to open since you have proven your mettle. I never ran novice since there was no novice when I started in NorPac region. this made getting things figured out tougher. I do like the idea of having an instructor in the car with novices it takes some of the trepidation away from guessing if you had the right line.
anyway thats my opinion take it or leave it
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3sgte
Full Member
Posts: 167
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Post by 3sgte on Dec 19, 2013 23:02:12 GMT -5
This will be my first season in a couple of years, so I am playing a bit of catchup. I was intending to run in GS Tire; are you saying that this won't be an option?
Also, the suggestion that novices be able to get mentors to help them at multiple events is a great idea. Once I get back up to speed, I would love to help newcomers looking for a bit of guidance.
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Post by integra55 on Dec 20, 2013 7:27:52 GMT -5
you can run any class you want to (assuming your car is classed there) …as for tire class … who knows?  stock class is in flux … in '14 (at a national level anyway) there will be parallel classes … "stock" on R-Comps, and Street on 140 tw street tires in '15 R-Comps in Stock will go away (as will the designator Stock) the class will be Street … same rule set, other than the tires, which will be street tires with 200 tw … the other change will be +/- 1" for the rims (width to stay the same as OEM) so with the confusion/BS for stock this yr … I guess you'll have to wait and see what classes CCR decides to use (which could include T … with whatever tire wear rating they pick |
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3sgte
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Post by 3sgte on Dec 20, 2013 10:58:40 GMT -5
I guess Street class is what I was thinking of. 140+ treadwear tires on an otherwise GS car. So then what lettering do I need for my car? I'm running a fwd car if that matters.
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Post by integra55 on Dec 20, 2013 12:12:35 GMT -5
keep in mind that 140 tw is for this coming yr only … the following yr (2015) the tire requirement will be 200 as to class designations on the side of the car … ? |
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Post by jprice130 on Dec 20, 2013 13:16:56 GMT -5
My understanding of the stock/street class tread-wear rules and class lettering is as follows:
2014
Stock (< 140 TW): SSR, ASR, BSR, CSR, DSR, ESR, FSR, GSR, HSR
Street (>= 140 TW): SS, AS, BS, CS, DS, ES, FS, GS, HS
2015
Stock (< 200 TW): SSR (this is the only "r-compound" stock class that will be offered)
Street (>= 200 TW): SS, AS, BS, CS, DS, ES, FS, GS, HS (there's a chance GS & HS will be combined)
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Post by yellow CR on Dec 20, 2013 15:35:44 GMT -5
I guess Street class is what I was thinking of. 140+ treadwear tires on an otherwise GS car. So then what lettering do I need for my car? I'm running a fwd car if that matters. G-Street will be GS G-Stock will be GSR Tire class will still exist, but it will be for the hoosier based cars on street tires. All stock classes on street tires now have their own open class. |
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3sgte
Full Member
Posts: 167
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Post by 3sgte on Dec 20, 2013 21:43:49 GMT -5
Excellent, I will get my letters ordered soon. Thanks all.
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rapidbutterfly
Junior Member
una donna che conosce il suo posto
Posts: 94 
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Post by rapidbutterfly on Dec 25, 2013 12:15:47 GMT -5
I always prefer heads up competition with cars in the same actual class, but outside of Nationals, fields aren't very deep in terms of quality. So, I could live with ST* pax, SP* pax etc. I actually hate PAX, but locally, don't see the alternative; if we don't do prep pax, then I'll most likely run I or P (the latter, not because I am anywhere near those folks, but because there's a lot to be learned in chasing them).
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Post by CoolGuy094 on Jan 10, 2014 21:48:04 GMT -5
So is there a way that someone can post a full list of classes that will be available to register in for 2014 CCR-SCCA autox events?
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Post by richardspyder12 on Jan 10, 2014 22:45:00 GMT -5
I second that.
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Post by cr89x on Jan 19, 2014 9:59:26 GMT -5
So is there a way that someone can post a full list of classes that will be available to register in for 2014 CCR-SCCA autox events? I know there have been continued discussions. Last update I have is all SCCA solo open classes along with Tire(now to exclude stock/street and ST), Ladies and Pro for year end championship. Events appear to be handled as "super pax classes" and possibly tallied for year end championship as well. So the break down is Street, Street R Comp(formerly stock), ST, SP, Prep, Mod, Ladies, Tire, Pro. From my understanding Intermediate is going away. |
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stock class is in flux … in '14 (at a national level anyway) there will be parallel classes … "stock" on R-Comps, and Street on 140 tw street tires 
