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Post by yellow CR on Dec 3, 2013 13:29:01 GMT -5
Since we are starting a discussion in a different thread, lets move the talks to an appropriate location. And if anyone has ideas for discussion, post them up here.
I see we are talking about novice class season championship. I would like to get away from this championship, as I do not feel it helps the mid to low level novices. When you have a driver that is obviously better and more competitive to open classes, like Steve and Will were this year, a championship works for the few involved. But it has to be a little discouraging to a novice when they get beat by 7 seconds. And I see in the results the top novices staying with it and the lower skilled novices not returning and only competing in 1 or 2 events. I would like to run a Novice Program, not a competition. Atlanta does a great job with novices, they run them in 2 groups, give them 5 runs instead of 4 and make them run with an instructor. They don't run in a competition, they just get taught what to do, both behind the wheel and on course as a worker. With a more personalized experience, novices might hang around longer regardless of how good they are as a driver.
As for class reconstruction. Last year was a proposal to eliminate open classes and run everyone in a like modded PAX Class. Classes would look like:
Street Touring Class
Stock Class
Street Class
Street Mod Class
Street Prep Class
Prepared Class
Mod Class
Tire Class (SM, SP, P and M on street tires)
Ladies Class
Pro Class
I am undecided on what to do with this, as the added Intermediate class had good competition and gave those drivers who are off the pace of Pro Class an outlet to compete, as well as giving drivers the cASSino car jumping ability. Thoughts?
Also, not that it is up for debate, but I figured I can let people know about the change. "The 24 Hour Auotcross" is having a facelift, it will be starting on Friday night and will run to Saturday night on August 22nd-23rd. The attendance has been poor ever since Nationals stole our Labor Day weekend. And we need to move off that date, but still need a day to recover from the epic workload.
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Post by racz19 on Dec 3, 2013 14:19:28 GMT -5
As the other Novice who stuck it out this year I like your idea Mike. Personally I always tried to do at least one lap with an instructor and that made a huge difference for me. Maybe pair up experienced drivers with rookies during the novice school? Exchange emails or whatever so rookies have someone they know on a first name basis they can ask advice of etc? Totally agree on getting the extra run in for Novices too.
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Post by jprice130 on Dec 3, 2013 15:35:07 GMT -5
Mike, I love the idea of a "Novice Program" instead of a "Novice Championship". I'd definitely be in favor of seeing the club implement the changes you outlined to the Novice class/program next year. Hopefully, it will help with retention and get more folks addicted to this sport. I've already stated that I'd be in favor of the prep-based PAX classes (along with Tire, Pro, & Ladies) and will be sharing some fun stats in a later post!  |
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Post by belcher on Dec 3, 2013 15:40:23 GMT -5
I agree instructor knowledge is invaluable. Biggest part that I learned this year was picking the pros brains and finding out which few cones out of myriad of cones matter. It's hard on the novice course walk because out of the 20 or walking maybe 2 or 3 give a squat. The others are just there for the social aspect. And that's fine. But somehow to reach out to the few who want to learn and maybe too nervous to ask. Don't have an answer to that. I have helped people who ask me and/or pointed them in the right direction.
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Post by gxpmatt on Dec 3, 2013 15:47:49 GMT -5
I am definitely in support of both the Novice program and the PAX classes. I was planning on running my car in AS in Intermediate next year for the competition but Street class would be okay too.
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Post by matthugie on Dec 3, 2013 16:11:43 GMT -5
I too am in support of both the Novice program and modded PAX classes. I really like them actually.
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Post by CoolGuy094 on Dec 3, 2013 17:45:03 GMT -5
I'm against the modded PAX classes solely because I will have to compete with Joey, and he will destroy me. But that aside, I guess I'm OK with it. I'd still show up if it was just STO for everyone.
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markk
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by markk on Dec 3, 2013 17:52:26 GMT -5
Yes to run everyone in a like modded PAX Class. Thanks, Mark O.
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Post by jprice130 on Dec 3, 2013 18:34:57 GMT -5
As promised, I've compiled some stats based on our 2013 season. Hopefully, this information will provide some insight on what would be an ideal future for CCR competition. Total SCCA Classes: 43 CCR PAX Classes: 5 (Tire, Novice, Intermediate, Ladies, Pro) Total CCR Classes: 48 # of classes that had enough participation for a season award: 25 # of classes with 3 or more participants eligible for a season award: 5 # of classes with only 1 participant eligible for a season award: 12 It's clear to me from these stats that we do not have enough attendance to support 48 different classes. Even of the 25 classes that did have an eligible winner, 12 of them were essentially "unopposed". I know some folks think that PAX is the bane of all evil, but I don't think it's so bad within the context of prep-level. Some course surfaces favor r-comps over street tires, so keeping PAX within prep-level should eliminate that problem. As an extra bit of fun, I used my rudimentary IT skills to churn out what the 2013 season points would look like for the various prep-levels. Even if you disagree with this proposal, hopefully you'll at least find these stats interesting. These stats include 2 drops and require at least 5 events. I thought it was funny that under this context, Andy would win the combined "SM" class even though he got 2nd in his base SSM class. The reason for this is that the combined classes created a situation where additional competition affected the points between Andy and Michael when they were just swapping 1st and 2nd in SSM alone. Walter Jones wins a very heated Street Touring championship, but that may not be enough to sway his opinion on this matter! Stock Class Championship
Class DriverName TotalPoints
ES Kevin Chapman 70
CS Richard Raley 39
HS Cameron Raley 26
GS Eric Hecht 17
GS Kenneth Bury 12
ES Jack McGahey 12
Street Touring Championship
Class DriverName TotalPoints
STS Walter Jones 57
STX Clyde Stahl 53
STR Gregg Henderson 52
STU Marino Sennati 26
STX William Baker 17
STU Alexander Lewis 8
Street Prepared Championship
Class DriverName TotalPoints
ASP Greg Pressley 76
ASP Ross Pendergast-Pederson 72
CSP Mike Burke 37
FSP Jerry Sturgill 23
DSP Michael Coolong 21
CSP Randall Yaussy 13
ESP Steve Couture 11
Street Modified Championship
Class DriverName TotalPoints
SSM Andy Hildreth 53
SM Joe DiApice 48
SSM Michael D'Amico 36
SMF Derek Jester 24
Prepared Championship
Class DriverName TotalPoints
GP Mark Oppedisano 58
XP Jon Furr 40
EP/XP Nathan Brainerd 35
XP W Dean Furr 26
CP Kevin Clevinger 19 |
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Post by matthugie on Dec 3, 2013 19:00:27 GMT -5
Joe, that is fantastic! I had started to type something up, but you blew it out of the water before I even had a chance to submit. I think that very succinctly puts everything into perspective. I, for one, would rather compete in something like this rather than be, as you put it, running unopposed.
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Post by drum3 on Dec 3, 2013 19:36:38 GMT -5
I like Pax , even though its not perfect . You just have to remember that Pax is based on AVERAGES and although it may hurt you on a particular course or condition , it will eventually help you on some course down the road . Just watch the Pro Class to see how the favorite car/driver on one course might be a second off the pace on another . It is an average and enough data goes into its calculation to make it very close at most events.
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Post by integra55 on Dec 3, 2013 19:55:03 GMT -5
As promised, I've compiled some stats based on our 2013 season. Hopefully, this information will provide some insight on what would be an ideal future for CCR competition. Total SCCA Classes: 43 CCR PAX Classes: 5 (Tire, Novice, Intermediate, Ladies, Pro) Total CCR Classes: 48 # of classes that had enough participation for a season award: 25 # of classes with 3 or more participants eligible for a season award: 5 # of classes with only 1 participant eligible for a season award: 12 It's clear to me from these stats that we do not have enough attendance to support 48 different classes. Even of the 25 classes that did have an eligible winner, 12 of them were essentially "unopposed". I know some folks think that PAX is the bane of all evil, but I don't think it's so bad within the context of prep-level. Some course surfaces favor r-comps over street tires, so keeping PAX within prep-level should eliminate that problem. As an extra bit of fun, I used my rudimentary IT skills to churn out what the 2013 season points would look like for the various prep-levels. Even if you disagree with this proposal, hopefully you'll at least find these stats interesting. These stats include 2 drops and require at least 5 events. I thought it was funny that under this context, Andy would win the combined "SM" class even though he got 2nd in his base SSM class. The reason for this is that the combined classes created a situation where additional competition affected the points between Andy and Michael when they were just swapping 1st and 2nd in SSM alone. Walter Jones wins a very heated Street Touring championship, but that may not be enough to sway his opinion on this matter! Stock Class Championship
Class DriverName TotalPoints
ES Kevin Chapman 70
CS Richard Raley 39
HS Cameron Raley 26
GS Eric Hecht 17
GS Kenneth Bury 12
ES Jack McGahey 12
Street Touring Championship
Class DriverName TotalPoints
STS Walter Jones 57
STX Clyde Stahl 53
STR Gregg Henderson 52
STU Marino Sennati 26
STX William Baker 17
STU Alexander Lewis 8
Street Prepared Championship
Class DriverName TotalPoints
ASP Greg Pressley 76
ASP Ross Pendergast-Pederson 72
CSP Mike Burke 37
FSP Jerry Sturgill 23
DSP Michael Coolong 21
CSP Randall Yaussy 13
ESP Steve Couture 11
Street Modified Championship
Class DriverName TotalPoints
SSM Andy Hildreth 53
SM Joe DiApice 48
SSM Michael D'Amico 36
SMF Derek Jester 24
Prepared Championship
Class DriverName TotalPoints
GP Mark Oppedisano 58
XP Jon Furr 40
XP W Dean Furr 26
CP Kevin Clevinger 19 you're correct … I probably won't run in a like mod PAX event … just for giggles I do have some questions about your combining of the classes … how did you account for those running in different run groups .. ? I remember at least one event where it rained for one run group and was either dry or drying for the others … there were probably others where the conditions changed from one run group to another did you take the times each person ran and then combine them into one class ? but really doesn't really matter … I can't see me running in a PAX based class |
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Post by jprice130 on Dec 3, 2013 20:28:01 GMT -5
you're correct … I probably won't run in a like mod PAX event … just for giggles I do have some questions about your combining of the classes … how did you account for those running in different run groups .. ? I remember at least one event where it rained for one run group and was either dry or drying for the others … there were probably others where the conditions changed from one run group to another did you take the times each person ran and then combine them into one class ? but really doesn't really matter … I can't see me running in a PAX based class Yeah, I just grabbed all the times from the overall PAX list for each event, grouped the PAX times per prep-level, and then applied new point values per our 10/8/6/5/4/3/2/1 system. I didn't account for different run groups or anything, but I think for the most part our club organizers always tried to keep the various prep-levels in the same run groups. I'm sure there were times when that wasn't the case, but we'd obviously want to make sure combined classes ended up in the same run group should such a proposal get accepted. |
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Post by jprice130 on Dec 3, 2013 20:29:47 GMT -5
Joe, that is fantastic! I had started to type something up, but you blew it out of the water before I even had a chance to submit. I think that very succinctly puts everything into perspective. I, for one, would rather compete in something like this rather than be, as you put it, running unopposed. Thanks Matt! Sorry to steal your thunder! |
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Post by z3elda on Dec 3, 2013 22:21:37 GMT -5
RE: The 24hr - 10x YES on moving it earlier. This way we get those people going to Nationals on board for a final test-n-tune.
RE: Novice Class - The only problem I see with Mikes proposal is that sometimes we have 20 novices at an event. Can we field enough instructors to make that work?
RE: Combining classes - I think that's gonna be controversial- I see where you're going with it, but there are alot of purists who believe the class structure and those championships should be preserved - if you wanted to add the combined class championships over and above, that would be different. In the end, it doesn't matter to me- I'll fit in wherever, because I want to go fast and have fun, regardless of the points structure.
Personally, my Intermediate class experience was less than satisfying, which is why I moved back to open CS toward the end of the season. I had alot of FUN in 2012 running in open CS, and if there is anything I've learned doing this its that is should be FUN first. I got away from focusing on the FUN this year. Instead of feeling pushed in a healthy competitive way, I just felt frustrated. I will say that I expected to be running a different car at the end of this year. That's part of why I chose to run intermediate, but the dedicated racer hasn't progressed like I'd hoped. I'm not looking for feedback about my performance- there are several reasons why I place where I do, most or all of which are in my power to change or at least work on - it's on me. Just wanted to share my thoughts on that..
--On another important topic--
We need more Autocross Venues. Metrolina is toast, along with a few of the others we've run in the past. zMAX is awesome, but IMO it's starting to lose a bit of it's mystique with people because we run there so much. We now have 4 venues: zMAX, Black Lake, CMP and Dixie. Since the last 3 are single event sites for us, we need options before zMAX decides they have us over a barrel and jacks up the price. 2 new venues would make a big difference.
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Post by CoolGuy094 on Dec 3, 2013 22:59:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the theoretical setup Joe, that's very cool to see. I also like how I won something in this theoretical setup!
Now that Michael moved back to a car with a back seat, my only SSM competitor from CCR is gone. It would be cool to have Joey and Derek as class competitors next year. I guess you've sold me on the idea.
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Post by subydude on Dec 4, 2013 13:27:55 GMT -5
Sorry Eric, but I'm for combining classes. I also love ZMax. There's no reason to worry about losing the mystique of a site when it's a great site that almost everyone enjoys. More sites are good, but I can tell you that I'd make more effort to go to a ZMax event than a Black Lake event, and Black Lake is closer to me.
I normally run in Pro class unless I'm testing something, so the combining classes thing doesn't really affect me much. I have heard of regions doing away with their Pro class and doing regular classes grouped together in an effort to "share the knowledge". Basically putting the pro drivers into that run group so they can help people out if needed instead of putting them all together as an exhibition group. I'm neither for or against the idea, just another data point.
Regarding Novice, I would say 3 events in N then done. Novice class shouldn't be a year long class, it should be the kiddie pool that you play in for a few events, then get in the normal pool. The vast majority of novices have a pretty good idea of what's going on by their 2nd event, let alone the 3rd.
If that idea doesn't fly and CCR does a year long novice award, how about awarding it to the most improved driver. Yes, you'd have to worry about sandbagging, but giving the trophy to the guy who dropped 10 seconds over the course of the day seems a better thing to do than giving it to the "novice" who's done 8 events (with CCR) this year in an STF car.
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Post by belcher on Dec 4, 2013 14:09:22 GMT -5
In novice class maybe instead of 3 and done, put it on a point system. Earn so many points and then advance.
As for a combined or open classes, once you get to that upper level of skill then there is a narrowed choice of cars that will be competitive. This happens in all motorsports. Some cars are better than others. I do this for fun and relaxation. I know my car is not going to be king in STX but I don't care. I get more enjoyment out of improving my skills. Getting the car to do what I want it to do when I want it to. Learning the course quicker. Finding those limits. And having fun with everybody.
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Post by yellow CR on Dec 4, 2013 15:13:48 GMT -5
I don't see a problem with getting enough people to instruct Novices. ATL has been doing this for years, and running them in only 2 groups, keeps the number of needed instructors down. We should be able to do it with 3-5 instructors, depending on how many cars are on course at the same time.
As for new sites, I am open to using more places. But someone has to find them and not just post, "hey what about this place?" Find the site and contact the people who own or run the site to see if they would welcome us to run an event there.
As for the proposed new class system. I am leaning toward keeping it as is. Cuz I don't want to alienate people away from coming to events. If you want more competition Intermediate is your option. And with the new Street classes and them having a PAX now, they will be eligible for Pro, Ladies and Intermediate classes.
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Post by Frodo on Dec 4, 2013 15:41:44 GMT -5
As many classes as Hodges pointed out, 48 in our club, and as many of them had 'winners by default' there isn't too much of a reason to change it. I feel there's nothing wrong with wanting to run in an open class by yourself. I personally wouldn't gain anything from it, but who am I to say someone shouldn't be allowed to. For some people autocross is about pure fun. It's not about winning a trophy or placing in the top. Some people just want to have a good time. And with the open classes it's easier to do just that (even easier in STO). For those who want to be competitive and want to win that trophy our PAX (Pro/Intermediate/Tire/Ladies) classes are good for that. I remember hearing a lot of opposition at the beginning of this season about the Intermediate class. Yet, it was one of the highest attended classes and had some of the closest margins of victory I've seen. Intermediate made those of us ran it drive harder and focus more on our driving and focus to try and win. I personally would love to see Intermediate stick around, and not because I did so well in it points wise, but because like Mike said it offered an avenue for people to compete in that just aren't up to the level of Pro class and/or were in an open class by themselves. I almost ran Pro class this season just because I wanted and needed the competition before Intermediate was implemented.
Like Eric fun comes first. If being in a competitive class like Pro or Intermediate isn't fun then the open classes are still there as well. And STO too. If you want more than fun then I say go for the PAX classes.
Don't fix what isn't broken. Some people want to compete. Some want just the fun. And some want to trophy hunt in a barren open class. their choices.
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Post by jprice130 on Dec 4, 2013 16:29:56 GMT -5
I enjoyed Intermediate too, but I felt like the Intermediate class took competition away from the open classes (hence all the "unopposed" class winners). In my opinion, most Intermediate and Open Class drivers are of similar skill levels so the combined PAX classes would be a way of bringing them back together.
If we move forward with the Novice changes and eliminate the Intermediate class then we'll have a lot more action in the open classes. From there, could we consider a hybrid setup? Maintain points for the base SCCA classes AND maintain points for the combined prep-level classes? If your base class has a variety of participation then good for you! You'll still get your base class trophy and you can just ignore the PAX standings if you don't care about them. However, If you're constantly running unopposed in GP (like Mark O. does), then he can keep track of the combined Prepared Points to have something extra to look at.
I'm not sure what capabilities AXWare has for automatically maintaining points for different PAX classes, so I'll be more than happy to maintain the points in 2014 for the club if needed. |
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Post by ukfpilot on Dec 4, 2013 19:54:43 GMT -5
I am new to CCR this season and I really enjoyed running with you guys. You have the best site in ZMax that I have had the pleasure of running at. I started out in autocross about 4 years ago with Triad and decided to expand my horizons this season, one reason being the SOLO CUP competition that was implemented this year. It was great fun. And FUN is the primary reason that I do autocross, with any club. I live an hour from the closest Triad events and an hour and a half from ZMax or Metrolina. So, if it is not fun, then why drive so far for just a few minutes of driving. I have never entered an event as a novice, so I can't comment on how CCR or anybody else handles this. I jumped right into open class competition, so that I could judge how I was doing against REAL DRIVERS and REAL CARS. This is easy to see in the rundown sheets and if you are lucky when you finish a run you can hear the announcer say how you did and how far back you are in class. PAX is fine as another benchmark, but I really want to see how I stack up against similar classed vehicles. I am in the unfortunate position of being one of those that won a class basically unopposed in 2 clubs this year. I compete in FSP and most of the REAL FSP cars in the area are national caliber, so when they do show up, they are mostly running in Pro. My only chance to have open class competition is if Nikki Edwards registers in open class instead of Intermediate. I have no illusions of beating Geoff Zimmer or Justin Barbary in FSP, but if someone a little less "national" should show up, great. Lets compete. As for trophies, if I get one great, if not, that's fine, too. I drive the best that I can every event, direct competition or not. I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on some of the proposals that I have read on here as to how to handle classes. If I have fun, I will be back, if I don't, I won't. Right now it is still fun for me. I would hope that CCR makes moves to keep the fun in it and not do something that takes away from it for some.
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Post by r0ssofnc on Dec 4, 2013 20:19:36 GMT -5
If we move forward with the Novice changes and eliminate the Intermediate class then we'll have a lot more action in the open classes. From there, could we consider a hybrid setup? Maintain points for the base SCCA classes AND maintain points for the combined prep-level classes? If your base class has a variety of participation then good for you! You'll still get your base class trophy and you can just ignore the PAX standings if you don't care about them. However, If you're constantly running unopposed in GP (like Mark O. does), then he can keep track of the combined Prepared Points to have something extra to look at. This would get my vote. I think how we grouped the classes for the night series this year worked well. I liked the idea of the intermediate class but it did hurt the participation in some classes which this idea wouldn't. Also, while I would like to have more people in my class, it only takes two people to have a good battle. |
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Post by z3elda on Dec 4, 2013 21:52:48 GMT -5
Joe- that's kind of what I suggested [ just not as well worded ] Tim- no need to be sorry- I'm not against the combined class idea, but some others will be. As I said - I'm focusing on fun next year, whatever the format. Is it February yet? |
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Post by matthugie on Dec 4, 2013 22:21:34 GMT -5
If we move forward with the Novice changes and eliminate the Intermediate class then we'll have a lot more action in the open classes. From there, could we consider a hybrid setup? Maintain points for the base SCCA classes AND maintain points for the combined prep-level classes? If your base class has a variety of participation then good for you! You'll still get your base class trophy and you can just ignore the PAX standings if you don't care about them. However, If you're constantly running unopposed in GP (like Mark O. does), then he can keep track of the combined Prepared Points to have something extra to look at. This would get my vote. I think how we grouped the classes for the night series this year worked well. I liked the idea of the intermediate class but it did hurt the participation in some classes which this idea wouldn't. Also, while I would like to have more people in my class, it only takes two people to have a good battle. I'm just going to keep agreeing with Joe as he is much more eloquent than I am. I do agree you only need two to have a good battle, but the lack of attendance in some classes makes that hard. You can't please all of the people all of the time, but I do like Joe's ideas here. |
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Dec 5, 2013 20:47:31 GMT -5
. "The 24 Hour Auotcross" is having a facelift, it will be starting on Friday night and will run to Saturday night on August 22nd-23rd. The attendance has been poor ever since Nationals stole our Labor Day weekend. And we need to move off that date, but still need a day to recover from the epic workload. That's a novel way to keep a 24-hour event without requiring a 3-day weekend. Certainly worth a try. Does that open any options for sites other than Dixie Classics? (I never have cared much for that site, other than the booths. All the courses feel about the same to me.) |
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Dec 5, 2013 21:12:43 GMT -5
Prepared ChampionshipClass DriverName TotalPoints GP Mark Oppedisano 58 XP Jon Furr 40 XP W Dean Furr 26 CP Kevin Clevinger 19 [/font][/quote] I think Nate would have taken second or third in Prep with this system. (He ran 5 events in EP, then jumped to XP for the rest of the season because he was tired of running with so little competition. XP cured that problem for him.) A different hybrid idea: Any chance of running the local events using National classes, but awarding season championships by the combined classes Mike proposed? To be fair, this would require keeping the cars within a category (such as Prep) all in one run-group. And it might be a nightmare for the person keeping points, since event classes would not match championship classes. Just a thought. Maybe someone can build on this. Mark, if we keep the National classes, come run XP with us in 2014. You may stomp us with or without a PAX factor, but that would be the same with XP or a combined Prep class. All of us in Prep are comparing our times to yours anyway, so we might as well make it official! |
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Post by jprice130 on Dec 5, 2013 22:59:31 GMT -5
I think Nate would have taken second or third in Prep with this system. (He ran 5 events in EP, then jumped to XP for the rest of the season because he was tired of running with so little competition. XP cured that problem for him.) Ah...good catch. My "fancy" code got crossed up with Nate jumping classes mid-season and it ended up omitting him altogether. I'm sure no one is losing any sleep over it, but I'll go ahead and update my original post to include Nate's combined points in Prepared. |
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Post by belcher on Dec 6, 2013 8:55:47 GMT -5
I may be way off base here, But I thought run groups were set up to have a somewhat equal amount of drivers which in turn leads to enough coverage for work assignments. I could see where there may occur an unbalance in the "force". Unlikely but probable.
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Post by belcher on Dec 6, 2013 8:56:14 GMT -5
delete double post
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