mxkon
New Member
Posts: 4 
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Post by mxkon on May 27, 2014 11:32:32 GMT -5
This was THE BEST! autoX I have been to, I know I haven't done all that many, but the redesign for the long drag-strip at the start, the quickness of the overall course layout was just amazing.
I just wanted to thank everyone who worked to layout such a great track, at a really great location. The timing might have been a bit of a downer, but with beautiful weather, and a great track, this was easily the best event I have been to, thank you!
Thank you!
Thank you!
p.s. more fast track designs in the future are very welcome by us heavy car folks.
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Post by Mike Burke on May 27, 2014 14:00:25 GMT -5
Hello All,
Two observations are offered for consideration relative to the CMP event and the comments posted above:
--Add my congratulations to all those involved in isolating and correcting the timing problem. Your collective efforts saved an opportunity for participants to drive and enjoy a challenging and very enjoyable course!!!
--As observed above by Mark M., the classes with available times should have their results considered for the Season Points Championship in their respective classes. Arranging to participant in re-scheduled points events can create multiple challenges for many regular CCR competitors. Plus, November weather can be chancy.
Thanks again for yesterdays efforts!
Mike Burke
Asheville
828 258-2442
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Post by SkudRacer17 on May 27, 2014 15:28:44 GMT -5
Hum. I was working the intersection of grid in the first group and watched a black newer generation miata go around the outside of the timing lights on their first run. I didn't have a radio so I am not sure if it got called in. This could have been the root of the issue. Course workers were pretty thin around the last corner.
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Post by lancer360 on May 27, 2014 15:34:04 GMT -5
That was definitely not called in and would explain the timing issues. Cyndi can look at at the run order and see if that correlates with the issue.
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Post by dewittpayne on May 27, 2014 15:55:44 GMT -5
A robust timing system would record the absolute time stamps for start and finish trips somewhere that isn't volatile so the log could be recovered in the event of a crash. A missing finish trip could then be inserted (or a start trip removed) and the times recalculated. But then we all know that timing systems aren't robust.
Would it be possible to post the times for run groups two and three?
DeWitt Payne
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Post by steven6282 on May 27, 2014 16:13:00 GMT -5
I just want to add that I had a blast as well, even being in the first run group without times. If there is any type of training sessions for the T-Links or any other timing components, I'd love to participate so that I can be more knowledgeable about our timing systems if y'all don't mind including me  Also as far as cable goes, if we do need new Cat5, I'm sure there is a place up in Charlotte that does this as well but I checked with a local cable store that I've used in the past down here in Columbia. Cat5 from them in a 1000ft bulk box it's 92 dollars (9.2 cent a foot), or if you want less than 1000 ft it is ~12 cent per foot. |
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Post by PinkBimmer on May 27, 2014 16:14:20 GMT -5
quote author=" SkudRacer17" source="/post/76981/thread" timestamp="1401222524"]Hum. I was working the intersection of grid in the first group and watched a black newer generation miata go around the outside of the timing lights on their first run. I didn't have a radio so I am not sure if it got called in. This could have been the root of the issue. Course workers were pretty thin around the last corner.[/quote] Yes looking at the results that was definetely the issue.... Steven Hickerson has a good time run I believe and then there is a Black Miata with a 109.681 that would explain the issue... so Joe Price was after him and tripped his finish for him..... so everyone body after that was off one in finish..... glad we know the issue now.... just trying to see what there is I can do to get some reasonable looking results. Thanks for letting us know this explains everything |
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Post by PinkBimmer on May 27, 2014 17:53:27 GMT -5
This was THE BEST! autoX I have been to, I know I haven't done all that many, but the redesign for the long drag-strip at the start, the quickness of the overall course layout was just amazing. I just wanted to thank everyone who worked to layout such a great track, at a really great location. The timing might have been a bit of a downer, but with beautiful weather, and a great track, this was easily the best event I have been to, thank you! Thank you! Thank you! p.s. more fast track designs in the future are very welcome by us heavy car folks. Thank you for the thanks.... glad you had a good time despite some issues..... |
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Post by srduck on May 27, 2014 17:55:25 GMT -5
If there is any type of training sessions for the T-Links or any other timing components, I'd love to participate so that I can be more knowledgeable about our timing systems if y'all don't mind including me We have that 1000ft cat 5 I bought at Lowes and made. It was $85 I think. I heard it wasn't in the trailer for the event though, which is why start had to be moved. |
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Post by maverick on May 27, 2014 20:13:25 GMT -5
I must apologize to everyone for all the issues on Monday. We tested the timing system on Sunday night and everything seemed to be working ok, but obviously we missed something. A huge thanks to Steve Eckerich for helping us get the system debugged and running. It appears we had several issues happening and that made the debugging routine take a while as we had to go back to individually testing one item at a time to find out what the culprits were. I talked with Steve Eckerich and Mike Licursi later and we have put together a few things that will help to ensure this won't happen again. Steve is going to get us some formal training materials on the T-link wireless system. Many of us were under the impression that they were just "dumb" boxes that just transmit a signal and if they lose connectivity even for a second or two you will miss trips. That isn't the case. Those boxes have internal memory and have an internal clock that synchs with the other boxes. Even if they momentary lose the wireless signal they are still recording start/finish trips with a time code and will record the trip and send it once they reacquire the signal. They also won't delete the trip out of memory until they get a confirmation signal back from the receiving box that it received the data. We are also going to look into a cable tester so we can test each cable before we string up the timing system at each event. We also are going to specifically label each timing cable with its purpose (i.e. start, finish, spare, extension) This way if we know a cable was damaged at an event we know exactly which one it is when we go to repair it later during an off weekend. As far as the times in the first run group I take full blame for that. I was the one running timing and I'm anal about always checking that the car on start is the nest car in the computer to get a start trip. I think what happened was a single missed finish trip. This would add the 20-30 second start interval to every ones times. After studying the timing data afterwards it happened after just 5 or 6 runs and it appeared to happen right when some novices were coming to the line so I just attributed it to a slow novice and it didn't click that the times weren't going back down. I know Cyndi will do her best to see if the times can somehow be fixed, but I'm pretty sure they are FUBAR. I felt so bad we had all those timing issues I decided to not run and stay available to help if we had another failure. I'm sorry for the screwed up times and if this is going to potentially foul up someones season points. I also had a blast. I definitely need to work on launching such a powerful car though. As far as the timing issues, all I care about is that something was learned from the situation. I've just started to learn timing with Highlands, and I can certainly understand the stress involved. Don't be too hard on yourself, it could have happened to anyone. Thanks to all that helped troubleshoot the problem. That's the best thing about this club; working towards perfection through constructive criticism! Just curious, but has anyone considered cameras as start, finish, and focused on the computer? I've usually got a few gopros that I can donate while I'm not running if that may help correct issues post event. Hopefully they wouldn't be needed, but they may be good to have just in case. -Jake Boss 302 |
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Post by W. Dean Furr on May 27, 2014 20:41:19 GMT -5
Despite the timing issues, I agree this turned out to be a special autocross. As folks mentioned above, that was an impressive effort to get timing working. For those who weren't there, it wasn't simply a matter of swapping a component or two. The fix eventually included changes of the location for start and finish, changing from wireless to wired, and reworking of the course start and finish to ensure the event stayed safe. (Sometimes, believe it or not, faster IS safer.) I was equally impressed by how beautifully the event ran after timing was fixed. At 12:30, we had not run a single car. In the next four hours, CCR pumped a hundred cars through four runs of a 1.3 mile road-course autocross. That, ladies and gentlemen, is IMPRESSIVE! That takes a club firing on all cylinders: Course workers well-spaced and hustling to get cones up in time, Grid keeping a steady flow of cars to Start, Timing staying on top of the numbers and classes, Crossover ensuring entry and exit from the course was safe and controlled, EVERYONE doing their job like professionals.
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Post by W. Dean Furr on May 27, 2014 21:01:08 GMT -5
On the subjects of points: I hate the fact that we now have a record of three non-points events in our last five attempts at Kershaw. That sucks. But it would be problematic to count this as a points event unless ALL times can be recovered. At past Kershaw events where some classes did not get runs, I aruged for counting classes that got their times. But persons who had thought it through explained it gets really messy when we look at factors like the number of events dropped. And it would be hard to explain why we used one policy the last two times and should change the policy this year without discussing it before the event. That's a bit like making rules after the fact. It's unfortunate we didn't see the possibility this could happen, whether here or at other sites. But, fact is, the established practice is to drop the event if all classes do not have valid times.
Points aside, it was still a fun and well-run event once the timers were beat into submission. Would I want every autocross at Kershaw? NO. Do I think we should continue to run Kershaw as a points event? Probably NOT. But is it worthwhile to continue to run Kershaw as a special event? Y'know, I think it is! There's nothing even remotely like it on the schedule. Just as Metrolina challenges us on one end of the spectrum, Kershaw challenges us on the other. As much as I like ZMax, we need that variety. Variety is one of the factors that makes autocross what it is. Every event is a new course, and the best drivers learn it in three or four runs with no practice. New pavement and new pace adds to the challenge.
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Post by mr2aw16 on May 27, 2014 21:31:23 GMT -5
I'm going to get the computers booted up after I recover and see where I can see where the problems started....to me the times look off about 30 seconds or so.. which was about our release time.... so I'm going to see what I can do.... This event is going to be a non-points event.... we added another ZMax in November so that gives us 11 total events and 10 timed ones now.... I'm glad everyone had a good time regardless of the issues.... A big thanks to those in the trailer today for working hard to get it fixed and a big thanks to Steve Eckerich for his assistance and troubleshooting... he's our club McGyver. CD, do you know the November Z-Max added date ? Always trying to keep the calendar updated... Thanks again for a great Monday event. My car absolutely loved it...and the tires showed it afterwards ! |
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3sgte
Full Member
Posts: 167
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Post by 3sgte on May 27, 2014 21:34:06 GMT -5
This was a good course and I had fun. I had a lot of fun. I hope that we are able to sort out the timing issues and not have to strike this event, but if we can't, then it will be a minor disappointment. We definitely get it right more than we get it wrong.
I'd be more than willing to learn the timing system too. I don't know whether this would be a case having too many cooks in the kitchen or if we need as many people trained as possible. If it would be helpful, I'm certainly open to training at future events, or off-site as needed. Just ask and I'm in.
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Post by yellow CR on May 27, 2014 22:02:15 GMT -5
I'd like to thank everyone for dealing patiently with our timing issues, and a big thanks to work group 1 for enduring jr karts, 2 hours of timing testing and re-testing, and an actual run group.
A big thanks to the clubs RE Steve Eckerich, Chris Ross and Mike D,Amico for fixing the timing and allowing everyone to have fun for the rest of the day. And thanks to Cyndi, Frodo, Jeannie and the the very manly ST Class clean up crew, for all the extra work at the end of the day.
As for the extra date, I added October 25th, not a November date. It's only fair to eliminate this event from our season points if Cyndi can't figure out how to correct the results. We still have 10 points events for the season, which is a fine season.
Sorry Marske, I have to take away your 25 points, and would be substantial lead in pro class.
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Post by PinkBimmer on May 28, 2014 4:55:05 GMT -5
I'm going to get the computers booted up after I recover and see where I can see where the problems started....to me the times look off about 30 seconds or so.. which was about our release time.... so I'm going to see what I can do.... This event is going to be a non-points event.... we added another ZMax in November so that gives us 11 total events and 10 timed ones now.... I'm glad everyone had a good time regardless of the issues.... A big thanks to those in the trailer today for working hard to get it fixed and a big thanks to Steve Eckerich for his assistance and troubleshooting... he's our club McGyver. CD, do you know the November Z-Max added date ? Always trying to keep the calendar updated... Thanks again for a great Monday event. My car absolutely loved it...and the tires showed it afterwards ! The added event is October... I was thinking of last season when I mentioned November... Sorry still burnt and sore from Sunday and Monday.. Haven't recovered. |
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Post by PinkBimmer on May 28, 2014 5:34:37 GMT -5
I've been glancing through the group 1 results to see what I can do.. Still am.... If we had a constant release time I could say take 30 seconds from everyone's run.. But we didn't depending what was going on on the course, a slower car, me hitting 7+ cones, cars stalling etc..., it could range from a 20 second release to a 40 second release...
This was my 3rd event here and first one actually getting to drive I almost didn't with the issues ( thanks mike for making me).
I thought the times in 1st group were odd but it wasn't till I saw what 2nd group was running that hey something messed up....
I'm meeting with mike tonight probably to go through stuff and will have some type of results posted as soon as I can... Sorry I'm not my usual fast self every muscle in my body hurts.
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Post by cr89x on May 28, 2014 7:27:40 GMT -5
JAKE KLODT EXALT TO YOU SIR!!!! You couldn't be more right with the way you said it. This club takes great pride in its events. Core workers are hard on themselves whenever there are problems. Yes they work their butts off and shouldn't be, but that's just the level of pride the group takes win this great club. That is why this program has become what it is. Growth thru constructive criticism is exactly correct! This group welcomes, encourages, and asks for opinions, advice, and feedback. That is the only way to grow and get better. Kudos jake!
Yet again, Dean Furr says things so well.
Those timing issues would not have been fixed if it weren't for the CCR RE Steve Eckerich stepping in and sorting thru the system. Thank you sir! Grateful to have you out there and working both sides of the course, not to mention all of your behind the scenes.
WORKERS WORKERS WORKERS. NOT core workers, EVERYONE. ..... KUDOS!!! I believe everyone checked in for their work AND did a superb job. Group one workers, oh my you guys are tough. I feel so bad for you all. Thank you for sticking it out. Workers were definitely hustling to reset cones and that's awesome. Numerous times I came up on sections and saw workers running away from the course. That entails the workers were quickly responding and intervals were darn near nuts perfect. There was one cone down just before the finish lights and in race line, but no one was down there because of lack of coverage for modified finish. I DNF'd earlier anyway.
Just great job by all. The inner workings to make an event happen all around. To everyone who came out to play. To the core workers as always. Good day and well enjoyed.
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Post by Captain Avg. on May 28, 2014 9:16:42 GMT -5
The optimist in me likes to think we didn't have timing issues; it was just the autox gods helping us "fix" the start. I saw some WRXs that seemed to enjoy it quite a bit, and it was a nice relaxing cruise to the first turn in the Miata.
I'll go ahead and pile more thanks on the first work group for being out there for so long and still cleaning up my messes. Sorry station 4.
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Post by Steve Eckerich on May 28, 2014 10:42:41 GMT -5
First, you are welcome for the help. I do not get to as many of the AX events as I would like with all the weekends we have racing and living in Asheville.
First the problem with the wireless was not antenna related. We have a special set that are "high power" and have a range of over 2 miles. This was the first set Race America built and we bought the first ones to use at our Wolf Ridge Hillclimb many years back. We have multiple sets of Yagi antenna from 5 - 15db gain depending on the situation. We did beta testing on these for a year working with Race America to get these debugged. These were sent in to them in October and completely reconditioned, as well as a second spare purchased. It is no longer possible to buy a T-link with the power levels we have so these need to be treated as gold. We use this system mostly at our hillclimbs so many of the AX timing people do not really understand them. We will get that fixed with some training, as well as a troubleshooting sheet in the trailer. Each of these units has a eithernet card inside and they communicate constantly on a network of their own. They have an internal clocking system that continuously syncs them to each other and they generate a "time stamp" as the beam is broken. They will store this and communicate with the main box in the trailer even if communication is lost for a period of time. The crew in the trailer thought the signal going to zero was causing false trips. The real problem is they should never be turned on with the boxes closer than 100 ft apart or they can be damaged. The spare boxes that were tested were left on in the trailer and made them unable to communicate because it saw too many receivers on the network. They are also sensitive to other networks and the main box needs to be clear of other wireless. Nick Hallman helped set up our initial system at Eagles Nest Hillclimb with a seperate eithernet that ran the printer and display at the top of the mountain away from the trailer. If we had the eithernet antenna near the timing trailer our T-Link signal went to zero.
The club owns a ton of cable, we just did not have enough in the trailer as backup because the wireless was the planned system. CMP is a long trip and the trailer was already very heavy. One thing to understand is that the light beams send a 5 Volt signal back to the trailer at all times until a car breaks the beam. Then the timing box sees Zero volt. It will not see another trip for 10-15 seconds so it does not do multiple trips when the second set of wheels go through. This is why we do not need to worry about carts and open wheel having false trips. If we are getting multiple false trips on the computer then you have lost the 5V signal. We will get more people trained.
I hope everyone had fun and appreciate everyones patience as we worked through the problems. I understand the first run mess as Chris was running the timer as well as the radio to get cone calls. That really needs to be 2 people so it gives the timing person the ability to keep up. We are lucky to have all the dedicated volunteers we have in CCR to put these events on.
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Post by dewittpayne on May 28, 2014 10:57:24 GMT -5
Never mind.
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Post by dewittpayne on May 28, 2014 15:38:41 GMT -5
Steve,
I noticed on the RaceAmerica site that there does appear to be an option that might allow you to log the finish line trip timestamps. If you had that log and the times, you could recreate the start line trip timestamps. Then you could recover all the times for every car but the one that missed the finish line. And it doesn't count anyway.
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Post by Steve Eckerich on May 28, 2014 16:20:22 GMT -5
You are correct. Checking with them today to see proper way to fix this if possible. Fingers crossed.
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Post by yellow CR on May 28, 2014 18:53:08 GMT -5
I'd be more than willing to learn the timing system too. I don't know whether this would be a case having too many cooks in the kitchen or if we need as many people trained as possible. If it would be helpful, I'm certainly open to training at future events, or off-site as needed. Just ask and I'm in. Thanks Clark, we can always use some people skilled in timing. You can never have enough cooks at an autocross event. Since many people do not show up to every event, having a rotation of people in each area of need is a priority for any club to run efficiently. With Mr. Eck willing to train up people on timing and troubleshooting the Axware / T-Link System, so if anyone has some computer skills and is interested in helping out, please let me know. Black Lake on June 22nd should be well attended with SCR jumping aboard and making this one of their season point events, so we need to be better prepared for Michelin and possibly another 200 car event. |
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Post by xeric13x on May 28, 2014 20:34:00 GMT -5
Mike, I think it's kind of already implied, but count me in. |
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Post by PinkBimmer on May 29, 2014 10:11:27 GMT -5
If anyone wants to learn registration just let me know.... I wouldnt need it every event. ..but comes in handy when my normal gurus of Matt and Nancy and Christian cant be there....
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LilBugger47STS
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Being as average as I am, uniqueness appeals to me.
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Post by LilBugger47STS on May 29, 2014 14:11:33 GMT -5
If anyone wants to learn registration just let me know.... I wouldnt need it every event. ..but comes in handy when my normal gurus of Matt and Nancy and Christian cant be there.... I've done registration before at other clubs. I'll be your huckleberry, pinch hitter, slave... just whatever you guys need. Time to pay for the play. |
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Post by PinkBimmer on May 29, 2014 19:40:17 GMT -5
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Post by W. Dean Furr on May 29, 2014 21:35:49 GMT -5
Results for Memorial Monster Auto-X @cmp. We know there is an issue with group 1 results. The file is being sent to AxWare to see if there is anything that can be done... if so I will repost the results. Thanks to all who came and hope a good time was had regardless. Cyndi, thanks for posting what's available. We could have reconstructed our car's runs from our video, but we could not have reconstructed the runs from others in our group so we could make comparisons. Whether or not we enjoy the event just for the sake of driving, when it comes right down to it, autocross is a competition. Without times, we're just driving around in circles. Thanks too to Steve and the others working to reconstruct times. I wish luck to all. But, even if it doesn't work out, it was still a fun course. Honestly, I even enjoyed our extra-long worker session in Group 1. During the downtime, workers gathered into groups (mostly where there was shade) and swapped autocross stories. It wasn't a half-bad way to spend the time! (What's the saying about a bad day fishing and a good day at work?) |
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Post by integra55 on May 30, 2014 6:22:02 GMT -5
what wdfurr said … and with all the messed up first run groups times … there are some times missing too … counting the "freebie" I got, by being the guinea pig, I actually had 5 runs … the results only show 3 (STS 55) … AJ was the driver of STS 155, and he didn't take his 4th run, so the 3 showing for him are correct
thanks for getting this up … and hopefully something will come from all the efforts everyone is putting in to "fix" the 1st run group
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