If you want TT's & PDX's in 2007 Raise your hands!

[pleiades]

This shold NOT be taken as "OMG They're not doing TT's anymore", it's simply a thread I wanted to start for all the TT & PDX people to show their interest, talk about problems with the program etc.

If TT's & PDX's are important to you, please post your comments in this thread.

Thanks
Steven Rankins

[bogner47]

Is the PDX the same as an HPDE, Steven? If so, then yes, I plan on doing the first 'novice' Kershaw day that gets scheduled. Otherwise, I think my answer is probably no.

[jhd11]

I enjoyed the "Solo Spectacular" @ CMP which included Club Trials as well as TT in 2005? and would love to do another Club Trial (No Roll Bar!). I also do plan to do a PDX this year so my response would be yes!

I still believe there is confusion about what is required to run PDXs, Club Trials and TTs and just which cars are allowed, licenses, etc.

Joe Downer
GS '03 Mini Cooper S

[MattP]

I plan on getting my Time Trials license this year, and attending both CCR events at CMP.

The rule book is extremly unclear on licensing and requirements, but the SEDIV TT director Steve Thompkins is very helpful if you have any questions.

I still haven't figured out the difference between the level 2 and level 3 events.

[Brian Gause]

Level 2 aka: Club Trials=< Highway speed timed events conducted on parking lots/airport runways etc. on a course that is similiar to an Autocross (with out the cone penalities) that a driver would be able to run for timed competition. With proper course design hazards should not exceed what would be expected in an typical SCCA Autocross, Therefore safety equipment requirements are at that level.
Level 3 aka: Track Trials=>Highway speed timed events on a closed, sanctioned track with higher potential speed and risk which require a higher level of safety equipment and car preparation. These are defined in the SCCA Track Trial and GCR rulebooks.

[Warp3]

If I have all my required parts in time (since it will take a good chunk of money to prep the WRX for DS and the MR2 for TT all in about 1.5 months), then I plan to time trial the crap out of the MR2 in 2007. Otherwise, I'll plan to hit up the PDXs instead. Either way, I'm there. ;D

Any info that can be posted here to clarify the TT licensing questions would be greatly appreciated as, like mattp notes, the rulebook is about as clear as mud on that topic. For once, maybe we'll get all the questions like this out of the way early enough, so it doesn't become a participation stumbling block as I've seen in the past.

[crash477]

Well I am up for as many TT's and PDE's as I can afford. I am lookign at doing a PDE/TT in April at VIR. I have a line on a roll bar soon too (wink wink, nudge nudge!) I just need to get all the safety equipment, and my license, and I want to do the Hill climb coming up.

Mark, can you say what you said above again regarding Hill Climbs and TT License?

[GBugg]

I've had a great time at both of the TT (level 3) events I've been to at CMP. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable running the "level 2" event as it was last year - full course, full speed, no safety gear - but that's up to the administration and safety council.

I'll be back as often as you'll let me come! It's a great track and you guys put on an awesome dinner!! ;D

[C4Shane]

Great Thread MarkT ~ last year it seemed a lot of the participation problems (at Kershaw anyways) were due to:
1. Not understanding license requirements for PDX/HPDE vs. TT, etc
2. Interpretation of rules requirements for safety equip on cars for the Kershaw (I had trouble with this..)
3. Difficulty of digging through the forum threads to find reliable info. I think with the new forum set up we can establish a thread and "sticky" it to make the info easy to find. I realize the rule books are out there and need to be researched if you are going to run. But, it makes it a lot easier for members to want to participate if they can get a feel for what is required without digging through all the pages of rules.

[pistonwheels]

markt said:

And what is the latest on a replacement venue for the BRHC? (Note to newcomers: If you take the TT school you need not do 3 flat track events before being signed off the do the Level 4 Hill Climb events) I've seen some postings elsewhere that indicate a site has been found but has not been finalized. Nothing on the TT sked for June or July, yet...

Tentative TT Sked:
www.rivergate5speed.com/scca/timetrials/index.html

The Twickenham Auto Club, Tennessee Valley & Chattanooga Regions seem to be very active in TT. Perhaps more inter-club info exchange can help.

Expect an announcement on the BRHC after the South-East Division AGM at Jekyll later this month.

Until that meeting, alterations to schedule cannot be confirmed, but people are VERY actively working on this!

Martin B.
R.E.

[Craig Farr]

As has been stated herein, TVR is very active in TT. We have had a lot of new drivers over the past couple of years and there are quite a few RABID ones. We have a number of TT class winners. Check-out the www.teamtac.org or www.tvrscca.org and go to the forum. We have a lot of discussions about TT going on continuously.

TVR puts on the Crow Mountain Hill Climb in Sept 29-30. It is a Level 4 so you do need a full TT license, not just a novice permit. Attend 3 flat track TT's or the TVR/ALSCCA TT School and you can get your full TT license. Already have a lot of track experience? Write to Steve Tompkins and ask him to approve your full TT license.

Level 3 and Level 4 TT events require the car and personal safety equipment. A SOLO Street Prepared car can run with the additional safety equipment. CSP is probably the most competitive TT class SEDIV has. The TT rule book at scca.com has that information. Any questions? Post something on our website forum and someone will help you.

I have had a lot of fun running the CMP full and half course in the past and will come back to do it again.

Craig Farr
TVR Asst RE
DSR Legrand

[crash477]

I ran both 2 day PDE's at CMP last year with CCR, and had a blast! I loved being on track. I really want to get my full TT license by May if possible. Anyone have info on this school with TVR?

[Warp3]

Sweet...this is far more info than was floated about last season about the Track Trials info. ;D

BTW, I just ordered my rollbar, SFI padding, arm restraints, harness, and fire bottle yesterday, I've already got nomex-lined race gloves, and will be ordering the rest (transponder, race suit, shoes, socks, SA helmet, battery cutoff, racing brake pads and fluid) shortly. Poor credit card...LOL ;D

More questions:
- From what I've read, you can also get a TT Novice Permit at the event (instead of having to apply ahead of time), right?
- Is a physical required for the TT Novice Permit or just for the full TT License?
- You are issued your logbook at the first event, too, right?
- Will rental transponders be available for most/all of the SEDIV TT events (though I'll likely just get my own and direct wire it to the car anyway)?
- Any one have any experience with paralleling an SCCA TT License into a NASA TT License and/or vice-versa?

bogner47 said:

Is the PDX the same as an HPDE, Steven? If so, then yes, I plan on doing the first 'novice' Kershaw day that gets scheduled. Otherwise, I think my answer is probably no.

SCCA officially started calling them PDX events when they got moved from Solo to the Club Racing division, but they are basically the same as HPDE events.

Here is a link to the 2006 Time Trial Rules (the 2007 TT rules aren't out yet): scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/2006TimeTrialsRules.pdf

[lynncombs]

Steve,

I hope to try the Time Trial and PDX events this year. I hope CCR is able to have the PDX as part of their season.

[Warp3]

markt said:

First, battery cut-off is not required.

Are you sure? This is from the 2006 Time Trials rules:
"17.27. MASTER SWITCH
All cars competing in Level 3 and Level 4 events, except Showroom Stock and Touring shall be equipped with a master switch easily accessible from outside the car. Spec Racer Fords shall be wired per RFSRII. The master switch shall be installed directly in either battery cable and shall cut all electrical circuits but not an on-board fire system. All terminals of the master switch shall be insulated to prevent shorting out. It shall be clearly marked by the international marking of a spark in a blue triangle and mounted in a standard location. Off position shall be clearly indicated at the master switch location."

You can generally get a Novice TT License at an event, however, last year at Gainesville(the first event last year) they were not available. You need only fill out a medical form to get the Novice Permit. A physical is required if you are over 50(double check me on that) to get a FULL TT license.

Ahhh....so I need to go ahead and get the medical form filled out and apply to the SCCA National Office for a TT Novice Permit then, right?

The logbooks are not free, the cost about 10 bucks or so and go with the car. Your car will also be given a thorough tech-ing and the logbook number will be stamped on your roll bar. For me this was done at CMP at the second event of the year. You may want to bring along any technical sheets on your roll-bar to show the person doing the tech or they might drill a small hole in it to make sure the tubing is of adequate thickness. Note, once you get your logbook tech is not much more intrusive than Autocross but, your tech to get the logbook is quite lengthy, mine took about 20 minutes. Be sure to bring all your clothing, helmet, arm restraints, etc. to tech, it is checked also.

Gotcha...just making sure I didn't have to acquire the logbook ahead of time somehow. That's a good idea about bringing the rollbar spec sheet.

If timing was being done with transponders they were always available to rent last year.

That's what I thought...thanks.

[pistonwheels]

warp3 said:

markt said:

First, battery cut-off is not required.

Are you sure? This is from the 2006 Time Trials rules:
"17.27. MASTER SWITCH
All cars competing in Level 3 and Level 4 events, except Showroom Stock and Touring shall be equipped with a master switch easily accessible from outside the car. Spec Racer Fords shall be wired per RFSRII. The master switch shall be installed directly in either battery cable and shall cut all electrical circuits but not an on-board fire system. All terminals of the master switch shall be insulated to prevent shorting out. It shall be clearly marked by the international marking of a spark in a blue triangle and mounted in a standard location. Off position shall be clearly indicated at the master switch location."



Ahhh....so I need to go ahead and get the medical form filled out and apply to the SCCA National Office for a TT Novice Permit then, right?



Gotcha...just making sure I didn't have to acquire the logbook ahead of time somehow. That's a good idea about bringing the rollbar spec sheet.

If timing was being done with transponders they were always available to rent last year.

That's what I thought...thanks.

I will ask the question about Battery Cut Out Switch at the upcoming conventions. I don't believe the intent was for Street Touring Cars to be required to have one. (I run FSP and don't). I'll ask for a clarification. The intent of the rule is for vehicles that no longer have stock means of starting (like a regular ignition switch) to have easily identifiable way of cutting power.

In regard to transponders, I can say that the direction is for use of transponders for Track events and there is No Guarantee that rentals will always be available or that there will be enough available at the track.

CCR does not own any rental transponders, we borowed them from national office. If you're going to run a lot of such events, invest in one. Its valid worldwide. Or if you have a friend who races - borrow theirs for your events.

In regard to "converting" licence from SCCA to NASA, it is relatively straight-forward and NASA will generally accept an SCCA licence. It is ALWAYS a good idea to keep a record of all events that you attend, what car/class and if there was any 'grade' - such as Intermediate.

Converting a licence from NASA to SCCA is more difficult - and relates to a personal crusade of mine over the last 4 years to improve that situation......

Go ahead and drill a small hole in all major bars of your rollbar or rollcage. Mark where the holes are with some colored tape. One day some Tech guy is going to want to check bar thickness....

Also, reme,ber the acceptable Helmet dates are different for TT than Solo. Solo allows one SA period 'older'. So donate your out-of-date TT or Club Racing helmets to the Solo program!

[Warp3]

pistonwheels said:

I will ask the question about Battery Cut Out Switch at the upcoming conventions. I don't believe the intent was for Street Touring Cars to be required to have one. (I run FSP and don't). I'll ask for a clarification. The intent of the rule is for vehicles that no longer have stock means of starting (like a regular ignition switch) to have easily identifiable way of cutting power.

Thanks, Martin. I'll be running in CSP, for what it's worth.

[crash477]

Man, there is so much great information in this thread.

I have a roll bar in the works, but what I want to know, is what is the minimum required parts to compete in TT 1 and 2? I am going to work up to TT 3/4 as well, but with finances, I want to know what is the least I have to do to be ready. I know I need a SA2005 helmet, roll bar, fire extinguisher, SFI padding, transponder, and harness (i already have a 5 point camlock SFI harness). What all else do I need to get?

I may need to go ahead and whip the credit card out to get the car ready.

[Warp3]

crash477 said:

I have a roll bar in the works, but what I want to know, is what is the minimum required parts to compete in TT 1 and 2? I am going to work up to TT 3/4 as well, but with finances, I want to know what is the least I have to do to be ready. I know I need a SA2005 helmet, roll bar, fire extinguisher, SFI padding, transponder, and harness (i already have a 5 point camlock SFI harness). What all else do I need to get?

I may need to go ahead and whip the credit card out to get the car ready.

Time Trials Level 1 is a PDX event (i.e. what you ran with the WRX twice last year) and Time Trials Level 2 is Club Trials (similar to what Solo Trials was). It isn't until you get to Level 3 (Track Trials) and Level 4 (Hillclimbs) that rollbars, fire extinguishers, SA helmets, harnesses, etc. are required. It's all in the TT rules that I linked above.

[crash477]

Well I just got done reading the rules, and wow, thats alot of stuff. lol

I guess I need to prepare to level 3 and 4 events then since thats what I want to do. So that means

SA2005 helmet
fire resistant balaclava
fire resistant gloves
fire resistant Driving suit and underwear
fire resistant socks
roll bar with SFI padding
5 point harness
fire extinguisher
Window net

hmm what else did I forget?

Shane, where did you order your safety parts from?

[Think Racing]

Like many of you, I too am working toward a TT license. Until I get there I am going to continue doing PDX's. I am a member of the NC region, but have found the CCR to be much more active on this front. Might be time for me to switch regions.

[Think Racing]

www.saferacer.com is another source for good safety equipment. You can look in the back of any Sportscar or Grassroots Motorsports magazine for a great selection of vendors. I bought a new Simpson Bandit racing helmet on ebay for $100 less than retail too. A lot of vendors have active online auctions.

[pleiades]

Kornholio - Mark is correct, you want to opt for arm restraints instead of a window net. They are cheaper and require no cutting/drilling/welding on the car. They simply slip over your arms and attach to your harness when you buckle in.

Also, as far as the rollbar I am currently running that you are looking into buying - It has been through 3 TT techs as-is with no padding, so that's one less thing to worry about. It was ruled that no padding was needed, as there is no way you can hit anything on it from the driver's seat. Ah, the luxry of having a huge 4 door race car. lol....

You also need not a balaclava unless you plan on growing facial hair.

[pleiades]

Great thread, and Mark, thanks for really stepping up to the plate with all this information in this thread!

[jhd11]

This is a great thread on TTs, something I want to get involved in. There will be a lot of discussion at the SE meeting coming up re: full cages for TT participants (level 4?) in the future. There is a great discussion of the issue in the TT discussion section on the SCCA web page. For those preparing their cars and those who are running now, you might need to let our RE know your opinion prior to the upcoming meeting.

Joe Downer
GS '03 Mini Cooper S

[MattP]

I am just about to order a roll bar for my CRX, in order to participate in Level 3 and 4 TT events.

I had been planning to rent an IT car for the level 4 hillclimbs and use my car for the level 3 events, but it would be nice to know before I order the roll bar (and seats and so on) what the rules will be for the coming year, particularly if safety requirements for the level 3 events will change in any major way.

Here's the post Joe was talking about:
www.scca.org/garage/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4463&PN=1

[Warp3]

crash477 said:

fire resistant balaclava

Only required if you have facial hair.

fire resistant Driving suit and underwear

The flame retardant underwear isn't required if the suit is 3-layer or if it meets SFI 3.2A/5 or higher, FIA 8856-1986, or FIA 8856-2000.

Window net

Actually arm restraints are what you will need. From what I've read in the rules, the only way to legally attach a window net is to the roll cage which obviously isn't doable if you only have a rollbar, so you'll have to opt for the arm restraints instead.

Shane, where did you order your safety parts from?

I got my first load of stuff (rollbar, padding, arm restraints, harnesses, fire extinguisher) from SafeDrives (www.safedrives.com), since they sell the Autopower roll bars and that's where I bought my 2.5RS's rollbar. The remainder will probably come from some combination of the following sites:

www.rfrraceparts.com (i.e., the guy that vends race parts at the CCR events)
www.racerwholesale.com
www.soloracer.com
www.ioportracing.com (also sells Autopower rollbars)

RFR gives a 10% discount to SCCA and NASA members if you include your member number with the order. Supposedly Racer Wholesale has an SCCA discount as well, but I don't see it listed on their site. {shrug}

[Warp3]

Ok...I'm filling out the TT Novice Permit application and notice it is asking for my Tax ID Number! Why do they need your SSN for a racing license!?

[crash477]

pleiades said:

Kornholio - Mark is correct, you want to opt for arm restraints instead of a window net. They are cheaper and require no cutting/drilling/welding on the car. They simply slip over your arms and attach to your harness when you buckle in.

Also, as far as the rollbar I am currently running that you are looking into buying - It has been through 3 TT techs as-is with no padding, so that's one less thing to worry about. It was ruled that no padding was needed, as there is no way you can hit anything on it from the driver's seat. Ah, the luxry of having a huge 4 door race car. lol....

You also need not a balaclava unless you plan on growing facial hair.

Well arm restraints it is then! And as of now I have facial hair, so I guess I will need the balaclava.

[pistonwheels]

The other benefit of a balaclava is that it helps keep the inside of your helmet cleaner! It is easier to wash the balaclava than the inside of your helmet, after you have been sitting in your car for an hour, in a race suit, at CMP in the middle of August.....