If you want TT's & PDX's in 2007 Raise your hands!

[pistonwheels]

When you're ordering your roll-bar, make sure you consider seat-belt mounting. Are you going to attach seat belt to crossbar of roll-bar? Some people want to have seat-belts attached to car behind rear seat base (so attachments are not visible when removed), but Tech can take a dim view if your belts are at strange angle on your shoulders. But then if you want to attach to roll-bar, there are specifics about how to do that...

[pistonwheels]

For all those that are considering doing TT's (and even PDX's), please do this favor for me...

One day, go outside and look at your car with the most critical eye you can. Think about what you are committing to do with this car. Now think about what you need to check on the car and upgrade in relation to that. Be truly honest.

Here's a story, though its from club racing, as an example.

I was down at CMP one weekend, working one of our races. A black Volkswagon GTI was running in one of the races. All of a sudden, on the back straight a rear wheel came off!. The car then gouged a nice groove in the race track, before turning and rolling several times. It got a nice lot of 'air' under the car while rolling, so was a great visual spectacle. The driver came through this OK.

Every panel on the car was dented. Though the hood stayed on the car, the battery was found over a hundred yards away!

The cause was that the rear drum had sheared allowing drum and attached wheel to depart.

I'm not trying to criticise that driver (he may have had the best race prep program of anyone), but I always wonder if the owner had ever considered how much wear-and-tear had been placed on that particular part.....

I know on my Suzuki Swift, the wheel studs are getting worn, I've had to replace two. And the ball joints have done 80,000 miles...
Hmmmm.

Have fun with confidence...

[pleiades]

I always had total confidence that at some point something was going to fly off the swift when I was driving it.

[hoserracing]

markt said:

Has there been a date set for the replacement of the BRHC? I heard it was May 20 but, that's the same date as the Nashville Super Speedway event, isn't it?

www.rivergate5speed.com/scca/timetrials/index.html

Mark,
You are correct, that's the date we announced last November and have the Sanction # and ready to go. There was a crossed wire & it didn't make it into Sports Car this month, should be there next month. Please let everybody know & encourage them to come out for it!

[Warp3]

pistonwheels said:

One day, go outside and look at your car with the most critical eye you can. Think about what you are committing to do with this car. Now think about what you need to check on the car and upgrade in relation to that. Be truly honest.

Great point, Martin.

Fortunately, the previous owner of my MR2 had just done several maintenance tasks to this car shortly before selling it (poly bushings, tie rod ends, ball joints, new clutch, etc.), so it's in pretty good shape other than needing some track worthy brake pads and fluid.

Of course, the rear strut tops have been clunking lately, so I'm looking into getting those replaced before the upcoming events. I don't need worn suspension parts giving me random camber changes on course...LOL

[solo94z28]

Enjoyed the 06' season and will definitely be back this year.

Great thread good to see interest in Time Trials!

[m3]

I'm still far too poor to think about doing any TTs this year.

However, I will MOST DEFINITELY be doing at least 2 PDXs in 2007!

[Warp3]

Ok...here is another bit of confusion. My current (OE) seats in the MR2 have integrated headrests that don't have harness slots. The easy temporary fix for this, of course, is to buy some different OE MR2 seats that have separate headrests (they had both styles available in these cars) and thus could accomodate the 6-point harness.

However, it would be nice to be ready for the 2008 seat rules when they take effect. Here is where the problem appears, though. The rule states that for 2008 the seats (including the passenger seat, for some odd reason) will need to be fixed back seats that are at least SFI rated and, if not FIA rated, they must be braced. So...here is the problem. I can't find the actual existence of SFI-rated seats! Even the infamous Kirkeys make no mention of SFI anywhere in the documentation. So how exactly are you supposed to run SFI-rated seats, if they don't appear to actually exist!?

[crash477]

Interesting. I need to get some mula so I can order my parts!!

[Warp3]

I just ordered some of the last parts I need today. It also looks like I'll be picking up some used MR2 seats for now instead of worrying about the fixed seat thing for now, but that's still going to be an issue in the future (unless that rule changes before the 2008 season starts). Next, I need to finish getting that medical form filled out so I can get the TT novice permit application sent off to SCCA HQ.

[crash477]

I guess I need to start the novice appilcation filled out too.

[Warp3]

You are correct that you need an FIA seat to avoid the brace requirement, but the way it is worded you still need at least an SFI seat even *with* the brace requirement. That's the part that is baffling me. Inexpensive FIA seats are easy to find (Momo Start, Sparco Sprint, etc.), but I'm not having much luck finding SFI seats at all.

Also, I'd understand the passenger seat should be the same as (or at least similar to) the driver seat for PDXs (and maybe even Club Trials), but I can't see the passenger seat getting all that much use in a Track Trials car, especially considering that many TT cars don't even HAVE passenger seats. {shrug}

[Warp3]

For what it's worth, here is the actual rule wording (from the 2006 TTR):

11.2.1.L: Seats - For Level 1 and Level 2 events the seat shall be
securely mounted. If a folding seat, it shall be securely
bolted or strapped in place. Effective 1/1/2008 - For
Level 3 and Level 4 events, the drivers seat shall be
replaced with a one-piece bucket type race seat meeting
SFI requirements minimum and include an upper brace if
non-FIA.

11.2.1.N: Passenger Seat - For Level 1 and Level 2 events, if a
folding seat, it shall be securely bolted or strapped in
place. For Level 3 and Level 4 events, the requirements of
paragraph L. above apply.

[pistonwheels]

I'm beginning to believe that there is a plan to write so many new rules for TT that clash with every other SCCA event, so that ultimately no one will run TT's in SCCA. Perhaps the rules are written by a NASA mole....

I will ask some of the people at National what the INTENT of many of these rules are - if there is one other than discouraging people....

[MattP]

Yeah, the TT rules seem like they were created by taking the pages from the Solo rule book and the GCR and running them through an automatic shuffling machine. Seems like it was done in a rushed manner when Solo 1 became part of Club Racing, so I'm hopeful that the 2007 rules are more clear.

[C4Shane]

Agreed. TT could be a real blast if they come up with some rules that make sense. Pretty rough when even our RE has to request interpretation.

[pistonwheels]

I have tabled some questions for the R.E's to discuss at the S.E. Division meeting reagrding the TT rules and the Division's representation on the TT Advisory board.

Also learned how some of the new Rules came into effect. I'll be following up on that with some of the relevant people (hint, TO).

Oh, what fun it is to ride, in a one-horse FSP car.....

[oldgiracer]

While the battery cut-off switch may not be mandated by rules/GCR, it is a well-recommended safety addition that should be part of your basic safety package for your car. Whether you TT, PDX or Hillblimb, I'd recommend all of us make use of every safety device we can add.

[oldgiracer]

Pistonwheels is correct, we will be looking to get some rule clarification for TT during the SEDiv meetings this weekend. I will personally be attending the TT group meeting Saturday night and will report back to the forum as to what I learn. If any one has questions they'd like asked, let me know.

[Warp3]

oldgiracer said:

While the battery cut-off switch may not be mandated by rules/GCR, it is a well-recommended safety addition that should be part of your basic safety package for your car. Whether you TT, PDX or Hillblimb, I'd recommend all of us make use of every safety device we can add.

I absolutely agree that it is a great idea and even if it isn't required for TT, I will eventually have one on my MR2 as I plan for it to see a lot of track time.

[czrider]

On the discussion of Track Trial/PDX (HPDE) at CMP (Kershaw) this April 7/8, 2007. CCR will conduct (providing there is sufficient registration prior to the cancellation date) a combined Track Trial (Level 3), Club Trial (Level 2) on this weekend.

The Club Trial will be on the portion of CMP track utilizing race turns 10-14.
The Track Trial (Solo I) will be the track portion of turns 1-9.
Both events require SCCA membership.

The Club Trial is essentially a Solo with out cones on course. However on the CMP CT, there will probably be one chicane just past the exit to pit road to reduce the length of the front straight to 1000 feet. The intent is to hold the course to normal highway speeds. Prior to the event the CT course will have to be sanctioned and approved .

A HPX is scheduled at the North Carolina Motor Speedway (Rockingham) in March 2007 by the NCR region.

At this time a HPX is not in the works for the fall at CMP due to track expense. This could change, but won't if there is not sufficient entry for the spring CMP event.

Brian Gause, CCR- SCCA Time Trial Chair

[pistonwheels]

Update on the TT Rules.

It was obvious from discussion at the SE Division Meeting that there is general concern from several regions about the TT rules AND the rule creation process.

Clarification of the Battery Cut-off Switch and the Aluminum Seat rule is expected soon. Please note the groups this does not impact, i.e, SS and Touring. If you have concerns about whether this will affect you, check with Walt Wurzbach. I would advise not making changes based on these rules at this time.

I did suggest they remove the 2006 TT rules from the National web-site until they know what is correct!

The South-East Division has appointed 3 people to provide input to National Office on the Rules. I don't have their names to hand. I think George Bugg is one.

I know that this situation will be discussed further at the National Convention. Definitely the Roll Cage issue is going to be discussed.

I am quite sure that National office is now taking more notice of the TT program after Terry Ozment heard from several of us at Jekyll!!

A TT Logbook should be available from National Office by end of January. Get one of these if you are doing any PDX, Club Trials, Solo Trials, Hillclimb. These are separate from your car logbook.

On a good note, the S-E Division has the most active TT program in the country. We are considered the role models for other divisions.

Martin Bartlett.
CCR Regional Executive.

[czrider]

Mark,

At this time, there probably will not be a CCR HPX nor Track Trial at CMP in the fall of 2007. For all the TT 2/3/4 newcomers, I urge everyone to go to the SCCA Club Racing/Solo websites and read the provided Time Trial/Solo rules. They become very clear once once you read them rather than try to patch forum replies together.

I have noticed questions pertaining to master switches, oil catch tanks, roll bar inspection drilling, log books, drivers seat etc. and they are all answered there.

For all Targa/Convertible drivers, be aware of the requirement for a bolt-on roof/rollbar for TT 2/3/4.

Brian Gause
CCR-SCCA Time Trial Chair
[e-mail]

[Warp3]

pistonwheels said:

A TT Logbook should be available from National Office by end of January. Get one of these if you are doing any PDX, Club Trials, Solo Trials, Hillclimb. These are separate from your car logbook.

Huh? What is a TT logbook, then? Is this something we order from SCCA merchandising (like rulebooks) or what? If this is a new rule for 2007, shouldn't this info have been out already...like in 2006!?

czrider said:

At this time, there probably will not be a CCR HPX nor Track Trial at CMP in the fall of 2007.

That's very disappointing news.

Of course, I find that news very odd when paired with Martin's comment that we are apparently the "example" for other divisions regarding Time Trials.

czrider said:

For all the TT 2/3/4 newcomers, I urge everyone to go to the SCCA Club Racing/Solo websites and read the provided Time Trial/Solo rules. They become very clear once once you read them rather than try to patch forum replies together.

While I agree that everyone in this thread should read through the TT rules, they are *far* from what I would consider "clear." It is obvious that most of it is copied and pasted from the GCR then "patched" to fit TT. For example, they recommend that Street Prepared and Street Modified classes be allowed in regional Time Trials for participation reasons, but whenever there is a TT rule that has varying specs per class, those classes are nowhere to be found in the specs (case in point, the electrical cutoff rule).

---

I was very excited at the beginning of this thread about running Track Trials this season (which I've been wanted to do for *years* now), but I'm sad to admit that the more I read about vague rules (to which apparently no-one knows the answer), new rules popping out of nowhere (assuming the TT logbook is what I'm thinking it may be), a still non-existent 2007 TT rule book, disappearing events, etc. the more I'm wondering why I'm even bothering dumping all this time and money into a Time Trial car when I'm *still* not even sure how I'm supposed to be prepping it. It doesn't mean I'm not still planning to run TT events this year (I've had a blast at the past Solo Trials and PDX events and want to keep doing track events), but all this pointless hassle is making it feel more like I'm doing my taxes than prepping myself and my car for the track.

If I'm wrong about this (and I hope I am), then someone please explain it to me, so I'm actually excited about this again.

---

On a related note, I faxed my TT Novice Permit application into the national office yesterday (had to wait until I got a tetanus booster first as I was definitely due for one and needed to note the date on the medical form).

[pistonwheels]

The new TT logbook is really nothing more than a record of SCCA TT events that you participate in. If you do a PDX, your instructor may write comments in it. You can record each TT event you do.

Part of the reason for it is to provide a standardized way for each region within SE Division to record particpant activity and help you in progressing, for example, from Novice TT license to full TT license. Though I have to stress here that participation does not imply automatic licensing. It will also help in determining your experience level if you want to run a hill climb.

You are not required to have one (though that may come one day), but its a good idea and will be helpful to you. You can also show it to NASA instructors or PCA instructors or to your favorite uncle....

[Warp3]

Ok...so it's shaping up to be somewhat similar to how NASA tracks your progress from HPDE1 through HPDE4 events...gotcha. Any idea if you'll be able to note previous experience in it as well (events you've done before the receipt of the TT logbook)?

[Warp3]

markt said:

At the risk of muddying things up, let me try to clarify based on my experience last year..

Exalt to markt...that was some very useful info and gives me a much better understanding about the whole novice scenario! Thanks.

markt said:

1. Logbooks - Don't sweat it.

That's one of the few things I wasn't actually sweating anymore...LOL

markt said:

I almost got my rollbar drilled to check the thickness

That reminds me. I keep seeing the reference to inspection holes drilled in a "non-critical part of the rollbar" (even the GCR and TTR words it this way). What is the definition of a "non-critical" part of the rollbar?

markt said:

Make sure your race seat has a back brace

Unless it is FIA approved, as the inherent "flex" of the seat is actually part of the FIA spec and changing it changes the "approval" of the seat.

What about non-race seats for the 2007 season? Do the reclining seat backs need to be "strapped" to the rollbar per the Level 1 and Level 2 rules? The way the 2006 TTR is worded there is literally no rule listed for seats in L3 and L4 events for 2006 and 2007. There is (a) an L1/L2 seat rule and (b) an L3/L4 rule that doesn't take effect until 2008. So what is the L3/L4 rule for pre-1/1/2008?

markt said:

get the rest of the safety equipment, bolt in your fire bottle that has a metal bracket & handle and come on out.

All ordered, but not yet installed (and the roll bar has yet to arrive).

markt said:

One item that was discussed in the TT meetings was that new people feared getting to tech and being sent home. As per logbooks, don't sweat it. The battery cut-off switch rule, at this point in time, does not apply to Street Prepared. It will not be implemented without full vetting and time to comply.

Exactly. This is why I was so "anal" about getting an answer to the battery cut-off rule. If it was required for my car and I didn't have it, I could get sent home for not passing tech after all that prep work. If I installed it and didn't need it yet, then that was time and money I could have spent elsewhere (as the autocross and TT seasons are approaching way too fast as it is).

markt said:

Because you usually run 5 laps per session(one warm-up, 3 hots, one cool-down) you don't even stress the car as much as you might in PDX during a 20 minute session.

Yeah, especially the brakes. A PDX at CMP is a really good test of a car's brakes (a test which my former 2.5RS with Panther Plus pads and Motul RBF-600 fluid passed with flying colors).

[Warp3]

markt said:

As I understand it: Non-FIA seats must have the back brace. In my case I have a Kirkey Intermediate Seat with 20 degree layback. An I/O Port seat back universal brace(that means it can be cut and welded to fit any application ) that is attached to a muffler clamp welded to my roll bar does the trick. Dave Brown installed mine. If you really have concerns about your car not passing tech I'm sure you can make an appointment with Dave to go over the car. He does techs for Road Racers and will spot anything that may be amiss. I don't know that that service is free, however.

That's great for race seats, but I'm going to be running stock MR2 seats (which recline, of course). It would suck to have to drill into my upholstered stock seats to mount a brace. From what I've seen in the past, stock seats have been run in SP cars in Time Trials unbraced, but that doesn't mean it meets the current rules. {shrug}

markt said:

As far as drilling the rollbar, I don't know where they would drill since my wasn't. If I recall he was looking down low in an inconspicuous place before he realized his drill battery was dead. If you have a factory invoice/spec sheet that might be a good thing to bring along. If it is a name brand bar that may be good enough. I think it's more the homemade variety they're concerned with.("Gee, Opie I could fix ya' up a roll bar. Jes' bring it by Wally's Fillin' Station." "Thanks Goober!" )

LOL...FWIW, mine is a name brand rollbar (an Autopower).

[Warp3]

I doubt I'll make that event, though. My first event will most likely be CCR's CMP Track Trials event in April and I may try to follow it up with the Rockingham TT event at the end of April. Not sure where my 3rd "novice" event will be, but I would like to run both VIR and Roebling at least once this season.

[Warp3]

I still want to run VIR, though, even if it has to be via THSCC or NASA.

After looking at the schedule again, I'll probably try to attend the Nashville Super Speedway TT in May for my 3rd event (looks like a very open course...I'll probably be flat foot in the MR2 for about 99% of the course...LOL). Failing that I can hit up Roebling in the fall instead.

I had posted in the paragraph above that Alabama was a bit of a drive, but went to Yahoo maps to check it before submitting my post. Apparently, I'm only 5 hours from Talladega, AL! That's closer to me than the Nashville Speedway, Roebling Road, or VIR! Sweet! ;D

UPDATE: Crap...I just realized that the Nashville TT is opposite the Wolf Ridge Hill Climb.