2008 CCR Time Trial Schedule

[czrider]

Heads up!
The 2008 Time Trial schedule is undergoing finalization and the participation level will be of major importance to the 2009 event planning.
All drivers that have considered running level 3 & 4 Time Trials will want to start preparing them selves, their cars and time schedules to maximize entries for next year.
Regions have been going out on a financial limb over the years hoping that if they did, then their efforts would be acknowledged with participation.
As entries go down and expenses go up, it can only lead to increases in participation fees. In an effort to offset costs the event organizers are working harder to engage equipment sponsors such as Cool Shirt and resort owners with marketing interests.
A good showing of participation at the last 2007 Time Trial (Roebling Road this November 3-4) will show SEDIV regions that we are still a viable market for TT event planning.
In our planning for next years TT schedule, CCR is considering a one day, level 3 TT, at the newly redesigned CMP facility. This would be in conjunction with the May CCR road race Memorial Day weekend and would be held on Monday of that weekend.
We recognize the need for more Flat Track TT events so that novice drivers can qualify for Hill Climbs and this day would help those drivers prepare for our Division's events.
Let me know of your interests in a May one day, full track, level 3 TT and if there is sufficient response, then I will promote it to our BOD.
Announcements pertaining to next years CCR Hill Climbs will be coming out in the near future.

Brian Gause
CCR-SCCA Time Trial Chair
[e-mail]

[MattP]

I can't make the event next month, but now that they've fixed the rule that required more stringent requirements for Street Prepared cars than SS or Touring (battery cutoffs, bolting in sunroofs), I'll get my car teched this winter and I will be participating in TT in 08.

[jhd11]

Brian,
I recently purchased a MG Midget w/ a SCCA Vintage Logbook. I think it would be legal for the VC class and would be interested in participating in an event at CMP. Unfortunately I can't go to Savannah b/c of a conflict but had hoped to get the car out for the first time there. Thanks.

Joe Downer

[tedebayer]

Tj and I cannot make Roebling but definitely plan to attend all events next year. TJ wants to finish getting his license as early as possible next year so please count us both in for May... THANK YOU!

[markt]

This is what I told our RE last week when I heard about this:

I don’t think a one day event will draw. TT folk seem to drive a long way for 2 day events, I’m not sure about one.

If you want to attract entrants what was wrong with the Solo Spectacular format? TT North Course for 2 days, 2-day Autocross on the flat side. Or, do like this year, North Course TT on Saturday with Autocross on flat side with full track TT on Sunday AND include with the autocross package, a noon drive of the full course, no race engines, r-comps or helmets, of at least 30 minutes.

Either way, decide NOW and promote the living heck out of it, that’s the key. If it’s promoted you will get your entrants, SCR needs to be approached about making it a points Autocross as well. That’s part of the making it work, reach out to VA, GA, TN, WV, you get the idea, autocross CMP, WOOHOO!!!

czrider said:

A good showing of participation at the last 2007 Time Trial (Roebling Road this November 3-4) will show SEDIV regions that we are still a viable market for TT event planning.

Does this mean CCR or the entire SEDiv.? If it is that critical that Roebling have a large turnout why wasn't this announced more than EIGHT DAYS BEFORE THE EVENT?

I will be there, Roebling & CMP, but even for me CMP will be a hassle. Why? Will we do Tech Sunday evening? Monday morning? I know I'll have to be at work Tuesday for sure and I may not get Memorial Day off without using it as a vacation day. TT is not a cheap spur-of-the-moment hobby. Don't expect much of a turnout for a one-day Monday event. Anyone with more than a couple hour drive, which is most of the SEDiv. TT folk, will probably use this as one of their "drop" events. The only upside is that those who do show up will get tons of track time. BTW, are the workers going to hang around? Or, will that be another fly in the ointment.

[oldgiracer]

What we all need to consider about cz's suggestion for a one day event, is that at this time, we as CCR have no plans for a TT flat-track event. Further, we seem to be losing a TT track event every year. Notice on the SEDiv schedule that there are no events for Barber or Little Talladega for '08, so that's two. Altogether, there is one flat track TT event for 2008. Which means there will be slim opportunity for Novice TT drivers to learn and qualify for hillclimbs.

Here's the basics: we already have the track rented for 3 days but will only have SARRC races on it Sat/Sun. Monday is virtually a "free" day to have TT. We will have to pay for workers, which we normally pay for 85% of the workers for a RR event there. So, no, we don't expect the few RR workers from tech, T&S, Race Control, Grid, Start, etc. to stay over.

I agree with MarkT's assumption that TT drivers might not want to drive very far for a one-day event. But one day is better than no days. Also, the last 3 "split" TT/Solo events at CMP were very expensive for us to put on vs. what we had in turn-out. It was a great idea and the Solo folks supported them well but too few TT drivers.

Backing and promoting a one day event is a tough choice but better than no choice. If we could find sponsorship to cover a two day event's base costs, we'd certainly hold one that way. Any ideas where we can find sponsorship?

[MattP]

So is it even possible to get enough flat track events to get a Full TT license next year?

Last year I get my physical and buy driver's gear, and then the 2007 rules come out and my car doesn't meet the letter of the rules because of a change in wording. They finally fix that, and now it seems I wouldn't be able to do hillclimbs until sometime in '09 because of the lack of flat track events? This is tremendously frustrating.

Is a THSCC TT license transferrable? Might be the easiest way to get to a full license, and you don't have to pay the SCCA twice for a TT license in the same year.


Has there ever been any consideration to running both a PDX and TT at the same event (though obviously not on track at the same time)?

[Steve Eckerich]

Matt you might want to check with Steve Tompkins (TT license chair) and give him your track experience and see about a waiver. There is also supposed to be a TT school early in the year. Either way it gets you in the game. We will be tossing around ideas for the Monday at CMP to see what the market wants. TT, PDX, or combination of both. With full course you have 8 hours of track time available with average 2 minute laps. With full course 4 cars or more in a pod is OK. Could get plenty of TT runs and still have a PDX group alternate in. I posted elsewhere on the forum about possible working the race to pay for the Monday event.Let the CCR BOD know what you want and will support and we will do our best to make it happen.

Steve Eckerich
ASST. RE CCRSCCA

[MattP]

Thanks Steve, I'll ask him.

[markt]

The plan is to have a school at Talledega. The track owner gives preference to the motorcycle folk before providing a date for the TT school. At least this is the way it's been the last few years.

[Warp3]

FWIW, I won't be able to make the Roebling event this year, like I had planned.

However, I plan to make as many 2008 TT events as I can. In fact, I'm tempted to finally make the jump to hillclimbs in 2008, since so many are springing up around here now.

Monday events would normally be an immediate "no" due to work scheduling, but since it is Memorial Day weekend, I could more than likely still run an event that day and thus would make every effort to be there. ;D

[czrider]

;D

Mission accomplished!

[markt]

I would submit that if the mission has been accomplished it should then be expanded.

TT is a SEDiv. series and CCR does not operate in isolation in regard to it. At this point the 2008 Schedule for TT looks like this:

Feb. 9-10 Gainesville, FL
May 17-18 Nashville
June 7-8 Wolf Ridge
Aug. 16-17 Eagle's Nest
Sept.27-28 Crow Mtn.
Nov. 1-2 Roebling

AL/TVR will most likely do a school some time April-June. That would give you 3 Flat Tracks or you could just do the school. IMHO, the more you do on tracks before the hills the better, it eases the transition from cones to cliffs. Also, the cycle has been that NCR does the South Course at VIR every other year in October. Will that be the case this year? Hopefully it will. That would make for 8 events for the season. That's about what the schedule's been since '00 when there were eleven events. But, if there could be a Spring event at CMP that would give even more options to those that want to move up by having 4 events at which to earn your 3 to get a full license to do hills. It's Gainesville that's the real haul, btw.

I contend there is support for TT in the SE. I give you this past May 19-20 as Exhibit "A". That weekend 69 entrants participated in TT level activities, 39 at Nashville and 30 at Wolf Ridge. Remember, this conflict on the schedule was debated at length and with much vigor at the SEDiv. meeting in January. What ensued is that both event organizers put there marketing skills in high gear(pun intended). As a result both events managed to survive. Imagine for a moment what could be done if all events were promoted as hard and that it wasn't just the host club doing the promoting. Between the internet and desktop publishing this should not be too tough. Now is the time the promotional plans for next year should be nearly finalized so there can be a kick-off at the SEDiv. meeting.

With the potential for 6 tracks and 3 hills in 2008, the SEDiv. remains the nation's premier TT SERIES. Sure, there are clubs in the Northeast that do a great job putting on hill climbs, I give them their due, but the SEDiv. is on the verge of busting wide open. What happend to Skelly Field? Why not Barber? Rockingham was on the schedule this year but didn't happen; can it in the future? High Rock may actually happen and there even could be a chance of adding Chimney Rock back into the mix...potentially 10 tracks and 4 hills............With a product like that you don't have to sell anyone anything, you just have to make it easy to buy.

[truk41]

I plan on making the transition from AutoX to TT/HC. I cant promise at what point I will make it though.

[czrider]

God,

The fact that you responded makes my point. The mission was to initiate discussion.

[C4Shane]

truk41 said:

I plan on making the transition from AutoX to TT/HC. I cant promise at what point I will make it though.

I have similar plans - but looks like it will take a little time to get up to a level to do hillclimbs....I wonder if the rubber band in the Fiesta will get it all the way up a hill. If nothing else, I enjoy working at the events (hey - somebody has to do it.).

[fv90]

OK I have some privy - the TGPR TT and school is looking at April 12-13, 2008.
To those of you new to TT and looking at the posts above take it from an old Solo1er.
Don't schedule events on Easter or Mothers Day and then put down the TT community for lack of entries - take it for what it is and that is for the last few years the most entries have been is in the low 50's for any event any place. We used to have 150 for Chimney Rock over 3 days but other events were still in the 40's to 50's at best.
Barber is not cheap so do not expect it to appear anytime soon unless they have a drastic cut in the rental - Skelly is out because of one person and that person has been quoted that race drivers are "old men in pajamas" we tried to put on an event and basically give that region ALL of the profits with none of the work but to no avail.
Hopefully with the additional flat tracks in the future TT level 3 and 4 will become stronger but I do not think you will see entry numbers above 75 in the close in future - but then again if Hillary wins I will have $5000 to burn.

[markt]

It's on the SEDiv. TT website:
2008 SEDiv Time Trials Schedule

February 9-10, 2008 Gainesville Solo Trials
(most Solo II cars are legal for this event) Gainesville, FL
Central Florida Region
321-259-6181

April 12-13, 2008 Talladega GP Raceway Oxford, AL
Alabama Region / TN Valley Region THIS IS THE SCHOOL, TOO256-586-2886

May 17-18, 2008 Nashville Super Speedway Track Trials
Lebanon, TN Chattanooga Region
423-332-2030

June 7-8, 2008 Wolf Laural Hillclimb Central Carolinas Region

August 2-3, 2008 Eagles Nest Hillclimb
www.ccrscca.com/eaglesnest/ Central Carolinas Region

September 27-28, 2008 Crow Mountain Hill Climb
www.crowmountainhillclimb.org Scottsboro, AL
Tennessee Valley Region
256-586-2886

November 1-2, 2008 Roebling Road Track Trials Savannah, GA
Buccaneer Region
904-779-2027

[Warp3]

Mark, where are you finding the 2008 schedule?

[markt]

www.rivergate5speed.com/scca/timetrials/index.html

[Warp3]

Ok, I swear I checked that page yesterday and there was no 2008 schedule yet. {scratches head}

[ffhillclimber]

I see there is a opening in July. Since VIR is so popular, is there a chance for something there? The 1.1 mile Patriot Course looks like it could be used even if the full course is being utilized and would be less expensive. Also the Tarheel Sports Car Club has a good TT program established in the eastern part of the state. Perhaps we could do a co-event with them? Their safety requirements are the same, I believe.

[oldgiracer]

Let's reign ourselves in for just a moment.

Putting on a Time/Track Trial (wish we could get one name) or hilllclimb is an expensive proposition. First, the track rental is not cheap. By the time you rent the track, track workers, ambulance, fire truck, wrecker(s) and the people to man them, you have spent $8-10K per day at CMP. Add to that food and other support for workers and officals including lodging, a per car fee to enter the track, an overnight camping fee, security guard fee and so on. Then sanction and insurance, fees to SCCA and SEDiv, etc.

The solution is to take a page from NASA's guidebook and run TT events on the same weekends as the road race events which is exactly what they do. I know that there are some on our board who would not agree with me but it is the most logical thing to at least consider. There may come a time when we have more tracks in our region. Will we be in a position to pick and choose? Hard to say.

The other solution/salvation for TT events is to find sponsors to help defray some of the costs of putting on events. Track rentals can only go up. I feel sure that one of the reasons that there has not been a TT event held by NCR at VIR lately is due to cost vs. entry income. VIR is a country club track and the wealthy folks from the D.C. area play there often and pay well for the privilege. That is why VIR was raised from the ashes. This is the direction that many tracks are headed. They make more money from track days and club days, driver's schools than amateur racing series. Will we in the TT world get caught in the squeeze? Maybe.

The solution is series sponsorship. MarT has brushed on it. FV90 has mentioned that in the old days of CR that there were 150 entries. Don't remember that but there were enough to have "qualifying" prior to official runs on Sat/Sun. There were over 60 cars entered on the weekend that the WRHC and Nashville TT ran. Looking at the entries, there were 11 drivers entered from our area who would normally have run the WRHC if there had been no conflict. Here's where fact is separated from theory. Did we get many of the Nashville TT drivers from AL and TN to our hillclimb at Eagle's Nest? Only a few. Did we have some new faces at that event? Yes, and they had a ball. Point is there are some of us who will never run Little Talladega, Gainesville or Nashville from this area. At the same time, there is a number of drivers from AL and TN who will not come to events in our area. What we need is more of an incentive to run all events than a plaque and ball cap for the champions of SE TT. Lower entry fees would play a large part.

Bottom line: by finding sponsors for either the series or individual events, we can lower entry fees, which will bring more drivers to our events.

[fv90]

Define few
4 from North Alabama
2 from Birmingham Al, area
You also had about 3 entries from the Tallahassee bunch
When you compare - compare Region sizes and you will see the small regions send a good number of entries compared to one of the larger regions in SEDIV.
As in the case for many years if the travel is over 2 hours the number from out-of-town will suffer.
I do agree there needs to be sponsors of the events to bring the cost of the event down - the increasing gas prices will have a more negative effect next season for those who support many to all the SEDIV events.
Those of you who think about it in terms of doing a hillclimb (needing the license) consider if you complete the TGPR school successfully that counts as the three flat track events to be able to get a full TT license and be legal for hc's.

[tedebayer]

AUGUST 2 & 3 for Eagle's Nest conflicts with Polish Mountain Hillclimb being put on by Pennsylvania Hillclimb Association. I realize we can't make everyone happy but there were a number of PHA members that were planning to come down to the Eagle's Nest site to run based on reports of a premier hillclimb!

Are we locked in yet or is there room to move? Just curious.... would hate to miss some of those guys being here. Thoughts?

[czrider]

Ted,
You are correct. We are locked in for that date.

[oldgiracer]

Let's take the so-called "conflict" with PHA. Our TT/HC schedule has been out on the SEDiv. TT site for about 45-60 days. The PHA site is still showing last year's schedule as of 10 minutes ago. So, if there is a "conflict" whose is it?
Seriously, in this division of SCCA, we are bound by the Club Racing program and schedule. Further, if we want workers and stewards at out TT/HC's, we have to schedule with the Road Racing community. Getting an event on the SEDiv schedule is extremely competitive especially in the months from May to Sept. If the day should come that we have our own TT/HC workers and stewards, then we could be independent of the SE Div schedule.

Time Trial and Hillclimb sponsorships in large amounts of money is the answer. PHA has that and since they virtually have no tracks in SE PA, they run hillclimbs and the folks who hillclimb there don't run track events as much as we do in the South.

Ted, in the recent past, less than 1/2 dozen PHA folks have come to any our HC's and I'm not certain that more than the same of us Southern Hillbillies would make the tow up there to run theirs. In an ideal world, I'd love to see us have an Eastern Hillclimb Series that would include ours and theirs on the same schedule, supported by a "Series Sponsor(s)" that would hold down individual costs to the racers.
The final factor in the making of the schedule is the folks that own the property that we "play" on. John Turchin wanted the date that we have changed for The Rock 'N Road HC. He does not want to conflict with "move-in" weekend at the local colleges and wanted an earlier date to attract more late-Summer vacationers to his mountain, which is why he supports us.
Hope that 'splains things.
Tony

[tedebayer]

Completely...I appreciate you filling us in.

Still wish we had some of them coming down... but maybe we can make up for it...

by sending some of ours up to one of their OTHER events!

Shhhhh....some of them Yankees still think the war is over....
<insert Rebel yell here>

;D

Seriously, they are some great guys and I hope next year we can get schedules off set so we can all run. Still think it would be awesome to have a National Series.... one day.

[pistonwheels]

markt said:

I contend there is support for TT in the SE. I give you this past May 19-20 as Exhibit "A". That weekend 69 entrants participated in TT level activities, 39 at Nashville and 30 at Wolf Ridge. .

Is 69 such a good figure? (please ignore the obvious jokes!) Overall, that is still too low a figure to be self-supporting for a single event (let alone 2). It is only the sponsorship which allowed the events to occur.

Going back to using CMP, I don't think we ever got close to that when it was split with the autocross group.

That raises the question - for me - of the number of TT participants competing. Is it declining? Are people running NASA instead of SCCA. You don't need to answer.

A concern I've had and think more pertinent relates to the effort a club should put into supporting and working an event for a few people. If a club has 800 members, how much emphasis do you put on, say, a hill climb that attracts 35-40 entrants compared to an autocross that attracts 120?

Certainly, I know that if you don't do an event then it attracts 0 people and that all events have to grow. But are TT events on the downhill road? What's it take to climb back up? Are the new, upcoming rule changes going to create an insurmountable problem in regard to getting decent participant numbers?

I'm not saying we shouldn't do event A versus B. Rallies often have only a dozen entrants. But i think evaluation of effort versus return is justified.

[czrider1]

Some reasons for supporting Time Trial events.
On a historical note, Chimney Rock maxed out at 115 entrants with a eighty car limit, plus the event chairs extended entry option. The site could not support more than about eighty cars since more than that always caused gridlock in the limited paddock space.
Over the past twenty years the number of Solo I drivers has been fairly consistent, Club Racing entry has dwindled about the same percentage as Solo I/Time Trials has. Sixty to eighty cars were about the best any SEDiv Solo I event (except CR) drew in the best of years even with 75 cent gasoline and $60.00 entry fees.
Without a progression of drivers from Solo > TT > Club racing there will be a further decrease in available Club racing entrants. That is one of the primary reasons to support the events. They are a training opportunity for drivers, crew, race chairs and specialties.
In my 30 plus years with the club, virtually every driver that I have personally known, that became a licensed SCCA racing driver started out with Solo II and Solo I.
When we had a $7.50 Solo I competition license fee and no direct relationship with Club racing, Solo I was growing. The same factors are affecting every SCCA program. In a nutshell the higher expenses from the National Office, increased fuel/travel costs and runaway race facility fees are out running the attraction of our programs. This necessitates better promotion, scheduling of events and making events more enjoyable for drivers and crew/family.

Brian Gause
CCR-SCCA TTC