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Post by tedebayer on Jun 5, 2012 10:37:08 GMT -5
I think we need to take a look at goals here. CCR is not running a Solo program for the purpose of sending drivers to Nationals to win titles. We can't build our entire program around the 8% competing at a National Level. It is for all of our members, novice and experienced, those who enjoy it for fun, those that want a shot at a Regional title and those who aspire to run Nationals, for those in Charlotte, those in Greenville, SC, and those in Asheville. If you want to run at a National level, you need to do what is necessary to meet your personal goal.
I don't think we can be ALL things to ALL people but AJ and Michael are doing a good job of trying to offer something for all levels... which is as it should be. If we build a program around one of those groups, we do not serve ALL the members. If all you want to run is BIG sites... then you will probably not get much seat time as we can't afford to run them all the time... or you'll spend a lot of time driving to events in other states. I think most of our solo drivers would rather have the seat time on a course than... than long trips for 3-4 minutes of run time and long trips home. That's your choice.
To make a statement about running lots that are potentially unsafe is a loose statement. We have rules and we have stewards... events are being conducted with in the rules and our safety record is quite strong. Implying safety hazards and dangers are present at current sites in order to get bigger sites for all events is not a defensible position. WE have a good solo program and it's growing. Everyone has to look at what is offered to see if it meets their needs and run or not run as they choose. It doesn't mean the offering is bad if it doesn't suit your needs. Jay, we're glad to have you at big sites or smaller sites and appreciate your helpfulness in coaching and ride alongs. No one is thrashing their car and burning tires and oil for money... and trophies just get dusty. It's about the fun... and your grin when you get out of that Honda after a good run is proof of that! ; )
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Post by Jay MR on Jun 5, 2012 10:41:07 GMT -5
"That said, I will only attend Zmax and Blacklake. Those two sites are huge and they offer a different character in grip level, while maintaining a national level course flow and design." Sorry, this reads more like "I will only drive courses that suit my car and I can go fast." Smaller lots do require a different skill set and offer unique challenges. A variety of lot types and sizes tends to even out the aspect of some courses being biased to a particular car type. A good attendance at the smaller sites does help to offset some of the annual club costs since they cost less to rent. This should help to keep entry feed down overall for all events. Sorry, wrong guy.... I didn't get to this point driving courses that suit my car. I don't drive in classes that are easy to win in. It's a fact. I've driven these smaller lots for two years, and they did not do anything for driver development. If you say that I only like to go fast for my own selfish reason, then yes, you are correct, but wait a minute, I thought the idea of autocrossing is to be/get fast? Am I missing something. For those of us that competes nationally, and are looking for local sites that somewhat mimic what we would encounter on a national level, then your idea of a small technical course is not beneficial, and it is an illusion. So yes, I will only run sites that a national level/style course design fits on. |
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Post by Jay MR on Jun 5, 2012 11:17:49 GMT -5
I think we need to take a look at goals here. CCR is not running a Solo program for the purpose of sending drivers to Nationals to win titles. We can't build our entire program around the 8% competing at a National Level. It is for all of our members, novice and experienced, those who enjoy it for fun, those that want a shot at a Regional title and those who aspire to run Nationals, for those in Charlotte, those in Greenville, SC, and those in Asheville. If you want to run at a National level, you need to do what is necessary to meet your personal goal. I don't think we can be ALL things to ALL people but AJ and Michael are doing a good job of trying to offer something for all levels... which is as it should be. If we build a program around one of those groups, we do not serve ALL the members. If all you want to run is BIG sites... then you will probably not get much seat time as we can't afford to run them all the time... or you'll spend a lot of time driving to events in other states. I think most of our solo drivers would rather have the seat time on a course than... than long trips for 3-4 minutes of run time and long trips home. That's your choice. To make a statement about running lots that are potentially unsafe is a loose statement. We have rules and we have stewards... events are being conducted with in the rules and our safety record is quite strong. Implying safety hazards and dangers are present at current sites in order to get bigger sites for all events is not a defensible position. WE have a good solo program and it's growing. Everyone has to look at what is offered to see if it meets their needs and run or not run as they choose. It doesn't mean the offering is bad if it doesn't suit your needs. Jay, we're glad to have you at big sites or smaller sites and appreciate your helpfulness in coaching and ride alongs. No one is thrashing their car and burning tires and oil for money... and trophies just get dusty. It's about the fun... and your grin when you get out of that Honda after a good run is proof of that! ; ) Ted, I honor and respect your opinion, but I'm not questioning AJ and Mike's leadership. We all know they both go above and beyond to put together a successful event every time. Mike is my housemate, so I'm a witness to his dedication. My issue is, we have a site like Zmax that is a great site, and you can setup any type of course configuration on it (yes even small courses), The distance with the two aforementioned sites are within 15 minutes max of Zmax, besides the cost, which could be easily remedied, why run on a smaller lot? On your other point, CCR is not running a solo program for the purpose of sending drivers to win national titles. The drivers that do make the effort to win nationally are the reason why it is appealing for other drivers in other regions to come out and help our attendance. You don't have to go too far to see why the Atlanta region is successful at keeping a great level of attendance. They are running a program that encourages and prepare their members to compete nationally, in addition to running an excellent novice program. It should be every club's goal, as it does a lot for member retention and recruitment. Look We all want CCR's Solo program to succeed and continue to do well, but the idea of staying stagnant and continuously using old methods are not the way to get there. I'll be the first to speak out, up until now, CCR's solo credibility has been a joke in the past, and I'm not saying that it was a single entity's fault. because of the lack of a great site in the past, a CCR local event didn't mean much (again no fault to whoever was running the program in the past) . With Zmax and the blacklake in play, a light at the end of the tunnel is starting to be visible. I may come across sounding a bit off on this one, I mean this with all due respect. I would not run with a club that did not have a program that encourages their up and coming top drivers to compete nationally, and personally with no PRO drivers in sight, the club would become stagnant again. |
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Post by stealthgtfour on Jun 5, 2012 11:36:47 GMT -5
atlanta 5.7 mil people > charlotte 1.1 mil people sheer numbers give the atlanta region better attendance money at the small lots helps pay for the big ones. quit being a lot snob j  |
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Post by tedebayer on Jun 5, 2012 11:55:18 GMT -5
I think we agree! Just express it differently. 5 years ago, I ran a National in Huntsville and a National at Dixie with TJ (my son) and Jeremy Cox. There was literally only one or two others from Carolinas. Watching it grow since then has been wonderful. The biggest wake up call I got was the year Per Olof won the Driver of the Year for SCR and CCR in his beautiful Mini. We wished him well on his trips to Nationals thinking... "he could take it all" in a class with tough competition like G.H. Sharp. I think he finished 23rd. That's when I began to see we were preparing our drivers to compete on smaller courses but Nationals is a different world. Much faster and free flowing... and BIGGER. That is when things started to change in the Carolinas and I am proud of the progress. Still, if we have sponsors bringing in money and we keep attendance up for big event sites for every event, we still are not serving ALL of our driver's needs. Part of the best driver's skills have come from courses designed by different people in different regions on different sites.. .and it's great for the sport to move you "PRO drivers" around!  In reality, right now, we have no sponsors for Solo program. While attendance is good at most events, one rain out with vouchers at CMP REALLY hurts as CCR has to pay for the track regardless of weather. From a financial standpoint...we only had 100 drivers show up and run at CMP. We know, it was 203 but financially, the income was half of what it could have been for 203 and expenses were the same. We can't pass on the loss to the entrants like CMP does to CCR and say "Sorry... rain is not our fault." One region (and CCR for sure) cannot support one giant site for every event... and it's not what the majority of the members are wanting. I admire your ability and others to compete at that level... but a lot of people are running for stress relief and on smaller budgets. Jay, I don't know how you, Donna, Geoff and many others driving at that level deal with the pressure and focus on THAT magic run... most of us are not wired that way and will never reach that level. For you , it may be stress relieving. Of course, maybe we're wired right and you are the abnormal ones! LOL Thanks for thoughts and discussion. We all agree program is moving forward and growing... and fortunately, the members decide the direction with votes, elections and participation. We all individually define what we want and I think what we have now is moving in a great direction that is pleasing to the members... except for weather May be we need a Weather Steward! Who's interested? |
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Post by Frodo on Jun 5, 2012 11:56:18 GMT -5
Anyone know who, what, when, etc. about 19 cones that belong to CMP being picked up on Monday? As all should know by now, we only use cones marked: "Tire Rack/SCCA" so if we are picking up cones that are not marked such, we are taking someone else's property. If someone could give us an idea it would be appreciated otherwise the club is on the hook for the cones and CMP's are not as reasonably priced as ours. Like AJ said when we set up the course we set the CMP cones way off to the side. It's very likely in the rush for people to get back that station workers didn't realize they weren't ours and they got mixed in. And we when went to pick them up in the truck afterwards the cones were already stacked and we just grabbed the stacks. Any that we happened to catch that weren't ours we left on track, but it's quite possible, and probable that some were grabbed on accident. I hope CMP wasn't too mad at us for the misplaced cones. Apologies for any we took. |
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Post by 05astock on Jun 5, 2012 12:10:47 GMT -5
Some of us don't do nationals or really even have a desire to do nationals.... so, yes... smaller courses do offer a different challenge and fun. I wouldn't do events as often if they were only at ZMax because, while it is large and flowing, now that the whole place is sealed, the grip SUCKS on street tires and the constant squeal from them makes my ears bleed. Personally I would rather see a season full of Metrolina events with none at ZMax than the other way around. I'm pretty sure people that drove the March event at Metrolina would disagree about it being a small nutsty lot that forces you to be timid. The course Licursi made was awesome both days and I know Krolewicz wanted to go paint the course before it was taken down because he said we need to run that same course again. It's possible to have a fun course without being on a giant lot. So if you like to play basketball but know youre not going to the NBA do you play on a 9ft rim? Train like you fight, and when its all said and done the big fight is courses designed like national courses. |
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Post by srduck on Jun 5, 2012 12:26:51 GMT -5
So if you like to play basketball but know youre not going to the NBA do you play on a 9ft rim? Train like you fight, and when its all said and done the big fight is courses designed like national courses. Mixing things up is what makes it interesting and fun. NASCAR would be boring if every single track was a 1.5mile cookie cutter. That's why Bristol, Talladega, Daytona, and Martinsville are so much fun... because they're different. Besides, those of us that know we're not going to the NBA do it for fun. We'll play nerf basketball, shoot wadded up paper at trash cans, or play in a driveway with a hoop attached above the garage door. Because fun |
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Mark
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Post by Mark on Jun 5, 2012 12:34:51 GMT -5
Just my 2 cents.... CMP is my favorite event of the year! I like running on an actual road course, having good bathrooms and a snack bar on site! Z-max and Michelin are great, but CMP is the one I look forward to all year!!!
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Post by Steve Eckerich on Jun 5, 2012 13:23:17 GMT -5
One other item to remember here is that all the Zmax, and most of the Black Lake events are Saturday (even with 2 day) and those that work Saturday can not race. We get many calls and emails from drivers that ask why our entire schedule leaves them out. How would you answer that as a BOD member that is tasked with pleasing all the membership? We have to strike a balance so everyone gets to play.
Second Ted is very conservative on the CMP event as CCR has to pay National for all the cars in group 3 that turned a wheel so we really have to pay for more like 150 and get income from 100. Rain hurts.
This is why we have to be a little careful with very expensive sites. It all goes great when we have 150 show, but see one drop of rain and we go to 80 in a flash and loose plenty of money. That money has to come from races that show a profit so it averages out the loss.
Just food for thought going forward. Next time it rains get out of bed and go anyway. ;D
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Post by srduck on Jun 5, 2012 13:42:57 GMT -5
Just food for thought going forward. Next time it rains get out of bed and go anyway. ;D After my 1 run in the wet, I came off course with the biggest smile on my face that I've had in a LONG time! I said I might have to start praying for precipitation, because that was bloody FUN! |
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Post by Steve Eckerich on Jun 5, 2012 14:01:05 GMT -5
But you are a very sick man!!
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Post by srduck on Jun 5, 2012 14:18:29 GMT -5
But you are a very sick man!! Touche, sir! |
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Post by Frodo on Jun 5, 2012 15:39:44 GMT -5
The variety of places we have to use provides different kinds of challenges. Metrolina seems to me to be gritty and have loose particles, probably from StreetWise events, which makes cars more likely to want to slide out a bit. Knights loved to eat tires and the light poles/medians meant tight technical courses were required. I remember an event that was held at City Park and if I remember correctly it had a few bumps in the pavements which also provided another 'environmental' challenge to runs that drivers had to be aware. I personally love the idea of auto-crossing at CMP, it's just unfortunate that their are variables we just can't control. However, there are plenty of ones we can control. Besides it's not an auto-cross unless something hasn't broke in the middle of an event  So let me get this straight, running lots that are potentially unsafe, where you can hit a curb, damage your only daily driver, and running lots that loops on themselves to create a 30 second course because they are so small is challenging to drive? Well, I guess I need to start learning how to drive slow again, and get beat by 2+ seconds at a national event. There is nothing technical about a sh*tty and small lot except for making you drive even more timid on a faster Zmax lot/course. That said, I will only attend Zmax and Blacklake. Those two sites are huge and they offer a different character in grip level, while maintaining a national level course flow and design. NO we should not have issues at an autocross for it to be an autocross. I'm not doing this to be stressed out, I'm doing it to escape from stress, therefore I would rather not have any issues at an autocross that would take away from the enjoyment of our great sport. - Jadrice I see your points in the hazardous nature of some lots and I will have to agree, especially in the case of Knights (a bad example on my part). At the same time if we decide to just do events at zMax because it offers national level driving opportunities that comparatively only a "hand-full" are interested wouldn't be fair to those who just want to come out and drive. Don't get me wrong I'd love to be able to compete with the likes of you and Khun and Licursi and partake in national level events, but not everyone does. Not being on the B.O.D. I can only imagine that it is a struggle to run the Club and Solo program and trying to please everyone in some way is damn near impossible. As far as my remark about something breaking at an event I directed it towards timing and registration issues where the computers like to run around and do their own thing at the worst time because they are computers. I by no means meant it in regards to people or their cars being damaged or broken. I myself, as well, autocross my DD and it would be a real kick in the pants for it to get hurt at an event due to a course or lot choice. I also use the autocross events as a means to relieve my stress because for me driving calms me and what better way to do that than to make it fast and competitive, so the less stress it can bring to me the better. Sad to hear that you will only compete at zMax and Black Lake, but that's your decision and no one should fault you on that, because it's always a blast to watch you drive and the way you handle your car along with other highly experienced drivers out there is a personal motivator to make myself better and to strive to one day give you top tier drivers a run for your money. Looking forward to seeing you run at Black Lake. |
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Post by SE3P on Jun 5, 2012 21:41:25 GMT -5
Who is this Khun fellow you mentioned?
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Post by Frodo on Jun 5, 2012 22:07:33 GMT -5
^ Look at this guy. Getting all up in arms because I misspelled his name. Loser...haha
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Post by cr89x on Jun 6, 2012 5:04:46 GMT -5
I'm starting realize I may need to check the forum more than once a day again. I wish I saw yesterday's comments before last nights core worker meeting. A lot of interesting, and insightful, comments. I've come to learn in the past few years that someone will always complain. Even though we can not please everyone, or that same person, we just do the best we can. I've taken a lot of ideas and problems that have been posted publicly, as well as privately, and changed things this season. It has been great!
Do I want this clubs program to be stronger? Without inappropriate language added, YES!!!! We do a great job right now and continue to strive to do better. I would really like to see CCR next to more names in National results. By focusing on the program and how each event is ran, more things will follow. Do I aspire to go to Nationals and do well? Yes! BUT that is my personal focus. We have the ability and the drivers to help those that do aspire to go to Nationals.
Like I said, focus on what we do and other aspects will fall into place. Many of us predicted that 2012 was going to be, yes I'm going to say, epic. It truly has been that. This season has been truly amazing. I'm so glad to be a big part of this program and watching it grow each month. Let's keep up our continued improvement and hosting amazing events.
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Jun 6, 2012 21:36:38 GMT -5
"Can't Please Everyone, so you've Got to Please Yourself." (And, if you can name the song, you're probably older than you care to admit.) We're not all practicing for Nationals. Some of us are just out having a good time autocrossing. I've stated more than once, I enjoy a variety of courses, including the occasional postage-stamp-sized course. I don't want all tiny courses, but I don't want all Z-Max either. (My favorite autocross last year was at Knights in the downpour.) CCR has a good mix.
AJ, I recall a certain novice showing up at a 24-hr autocross a few years ago and driving the wheels off a VW. It was a small lot, but the driver enjoyed it, came back for every autocross the next year, and worked his way to a position of considerable responsibility in the club. It IS possible to hold a safe and fun event on a small course. Can't please everyone. Please yourself. You've earned the right.
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Post by dstan on Jun 6, 2012 22:38:07 GMT -5
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Post by cr89x on Jun 7, 2012 4:35:37 GMT -5
Dean, that was an amazing day that I still don't forget, especially who to thank for me getting into this sport.
We do have a good mix and I like to keep it that way.
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Post by mr2aw16 on Jun 9, 2012 19:24:49 GMT -5
An oh by the way... I have had all my CMP runs the last 3 years, having been in the first 2 run groups. 2 years in CSP, and this year in CS. Really should look at making sure those groups run in the pm the following year, or at least the majority of the early run groups. Being that the rain usually comes later... PS Thanks for posting the CMP results...sometime...  |
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Post by turtle8 on Jun 9, 2012 21:42:17 GMT -5
I will participate in any CCR event wherever it is held. Of course I think large lots are better than small ones. Even if a driver isn't on track to National status, national style courses allow for better competitive comparison across events and venues. I can see how some believe it is a disservice to have small lots exclusively.
I'd love to have more National size lots, but the club plays with cards it is dealt. Unless some member(s) out there can find more sites, we run where we can run. Personally, I like the size of Zmax, but I hate driving there on my street tires.
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Post by grey ghost on Jun 11, 2012 12:49:04 GMT -5
Having been Autocrossing for 30 plus years, I will wade in on this topic. I have say the CCR program
has come far from were it was 15 years ago when I moved here from San Diego:0. In S/d we had
on average 250 to 275 entries. ran exclusivly at Jack Murphy stadium. they had 3 lots to choose from
for variation. I can recall having on course 142+seconds yes 2 minutes and 22 seconds. eight cars on
course. 3 runs each plus at least a hour of funs runs. the Los angeles Events were on average only 90 miles away from Jack Murphy. we would do both in the same day. these regions have produced a lot
of National Champions. but the regions were just wanting to put on good events. The courses were diverse we had diffrent clubs within the regions putting events on, clubs like the Datsun competition club,
(small cars and party club). GRA Gruldstand RacingAcc. ( corvette club). and more that I cannot rememmeber. each club put on 2 events a year supplying core workers. the autocross board would
fill in as nessaccary.
Getting to my point you don't have to run big lots, just run them like you are. Flowing courses and
running the event like you know what you are doing. We are doing very well with this right know.
Alot of the classes are run on a PAX system. the Pax number is based on National Events from tours,
ant the championship. If we run courses that are out balance on what a National course is then the
Pax numbers do not work well. You can't use pax on a course like CMP, road course events favor the
low hp cars more. (you are saying What about know), the lower hp cars don't have to slow down.
been there done that at alot of events.
We do need another lot to run like Z-max. one that will allow us to grow more.
As to cost of events I was paying $35.00 for locals 15 years ago inflation needs
to come into it. 15 years ago Scca charge a $1.00 per car know its $15.00. so
how about us increasing the entry to $45.00 or more. 1500x10.00 $1500 more
to cover expenses.
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Post by markt on Jun 11, 2012 15:00:27 GMT -5
The CCR AX program has changed tremendously in the 9 years I've been involved. After Michelin said, "No more" after a SEDiv and Z-Max was merely a dream for Bruton Smith there were years when we only had Knights and NTI's back lot(which made Knights seem like Black Lake). During that time there were national level drivers that came to those venues and set FTD, teaching those learning that a great autocrosser can win on any size lot. Despite the site limitations we had a great time. You should have seen our former RE's Bently TurboR coming out of a pivot cone at NTI, looked like the flippin' Queen Mary with the bow pointed skyward.
My point in all this is that we have a variety of autocrossers and as such we need a variety of sites. We're blessed to have Z-Max and lucky Black Lake is back but, sites such as these in the Carolinas, particularly North, are very rare. This is due in large part to government zoning mandates; you ain't buildin' no Jack Murphey Stadium style surface lots in these here parts, period. It also falls on the national level drivers to support the smaller venues as it gives the novices a chance to see what cars can do in the hands of the "pros" and inspires them to improve, knowing what can be done.
Also, some don't show if the weather isn't perfect. I don't know how you can change that except to say, the ones that do improve do so by driving in less than ideal conditions at any event they can attend.
Off soap box, now back to our regularly scheduled thread.
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Post by cr89x on Jun 11, 2012 18:43:03 GMT -5
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Post by Frodo on Jun 11, 2012 21:22:29 GMT -5
Ok...according to the Final times (and I know they don't count) my second run where I went completely off course and hit that pylon was faster than my first run by 2 seconds. And the hold up of me goinf off course had to have lasted at least 8-10 seconds. Basically what I'm saying is that if I hadn't gone off I would have posted a time near Hill's and Feeney. I was hauling some ass haha. DAMN ME!!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! |
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ein86
Junior Member
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Post by ein86 on Jun 12, 2012 8:27:43 GMT -5
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Post by mustangrcr18 on Jun 15, 2012 15:27:19 GMT -5
Well Im glad this doesn't count 'cause my 4th run isnt even listed :/ Thanks for getting them up! |
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Post by Mike Burke on Jun 19, 2012 21:08:41 GMT -5
Hello, I completely support the aforementioned suggestion to count the canceled CMP event toward the required season award related minimum number of events for each driver who registered to compete and was actually there on Monday, May 28th. That seems to be an appropriate consideration in lieu of points and, or lack of driving time for all the involved competitors' who invested time and out of pocket expenses as well as may potentially have scheduling conflicts with the remaining 2012 CCR events. Mike Burke Asheville 828 258-2442 Hello, Have I overlooked an official response to the aforementioned suggestion(s) regarding counting the May CMP event toward the requirements for season awards? Also, are the specific 2012 requirements for Season Class Awards, i.e. Club membership, minimum and maximum number of events, points awarded by event/class finishing position, etc. published on the Region's website? Thanks, Mike Burke Asheville 828 258-2442 |
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Post by cr89x on Jun 20, 2012 4:51:17 GMT -5
Nothing has changed on counting the May event. If need be, I will post specifics to the 2012 season but we are following the guidelines from 2011.
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In reality, right now, we have no sponsors for Solo program. While attendance is good at most events, one rain out with vouchers at CMP REALLY hurts as CCR has to pay for the track regardless of weather. From a financial standpoint...we only had 100 drivers show up and run at CMP. We know, it was 203 but financially, the income was half of what it could have been for 203 and expenses were the same. We can't pass on the loss to the entrants like CMP does to CCR and say "Sorry... rain is not our fault." One region (and CCR for sure) cannot support one giant site for every event... and it's not what the majority of the members are wanting. I admire your ability and others to compete at that level... but a lot of people are running for stress relief and on smaller budgets. Jay, I don't know how you, Donna, Geoff and many others driving at that level deal with the pressure and focus on THAT magic run... most of us are not wired that way and will never reach that level. For you , it may be stress relieving. Of course, maybe we're wired right and you are the abnormal ones! LOL 
