Carolina Cup AX7 @ zMax

[matthugie]

Jun 30, 2013 18:15:22 GMT -5 PinkBimmer said:

Yes these are still very unofficial... I do agree with you, (wish I could take off 20 seconds) the problem is that the audit sheets and the computer both have ES11 66.712, but before the official results get posted we will get these corrected so don't worry there. That's one of the one times I'm still trying to figure out. Going through 15+ pages of audit sheets is not an easy task...

Cyndi, I know you're still going through this, but just in case it isn't on the radar there might be some issues in tire class as well. My last run is showing up the same as my third, which was about a second slower. I appreciate you posting the unofficial results though, I'm sure most of the results are fine and it's cool to see what others did.

[dewittpayne]

Matt,

I'm not exactly an expert considering I was 8 seconds slower than you, but one thing I see in the video that I know I'm doing too is turning in too late on the some of the corners, specifically, starting at 24 seconds on your video for one. Ideally, you should be starting to unwind the steering wheel before the cone on the inside when there's a wall on the outside. Technically, you may need to brake earlier and less and turn in sooner. You can actually run off the outside of the turn or have to back off the throttle because you're going too slowly. You should be carrying enough slip angle on the tires in the corner that you would run over the cone on the inside if you were going slower. Not that I've ever actually been able to do that, even on a racing sim like Grand Prix Legends. I never could get the first Lesmo turn at Monza right in GPL for that very reason. There's an intermediate range of speed where you either run over the cone/curb on the inside of the corner or hit cones/run off track on the outside. But it's a fine line, because a little too much faster and you're going to run off the track anyway. And, of course, car setup and balance become important at those speeds. Unless you're actually at the car's limits rather than your limits, you probably don't have the right information to make correct setup changes.

DeWitt Payne
2011 Mustang GT
FS #3

Edit:  Oh, and thanks for the pictures even though I'm only in 1.5 (I'm in the background of one picture).

[xeric13x]

Ditto on the pix.

This forum on OG iPhone4... It keeps thinking I wanna download Candy Crush and report every post.

[PinkBimmer]

Yes some 3rd and 4th runs are reversed the times are right just the order of them is wrong. I had to manually insert some missing runs for some people. Since your 3rd run was missing your 4th became your 3rd, and 4th became 3rd. With 200 people it was easier for me that way. Axware when it works is beautiful and every once in awhile it has it moments and does some strange stuff. Thank goodness we have auditors, instead of spending 6 hours yesterday I'd probably still be working on it. Except for ES which I will fix in morning all rest of groups are right in times, even though order might be a tad wrong.

[properone]

I was one of the unlucky few that only had 3 runs (and my first I had to stop mid-course due to catching the car in front... great for my ego though haha!) I was later informed that it should've been red flagged and I should've gotten a re-run, however I was not going to be picky since we were on such a tight time constraint. Regardless.. I am sunburnt, drove an hour and a half, and I managed to DNF myself out of my two full runs.. and I still had a blast. That course was wonderful. Thank you for all your hard work, I know everyone was frustrated by the deadline -- but everyone did the best they could. See you next time!

[belcher]

My observations for what it is worth. 1- great course much different challenge than anything else I have run.
2- Walter you did a great job as starter. I was working close to you and saw how you had to space the cars and the reasons why.
3- Numbers area big issue. There ain't no style points. Maybe manditory black on white backgound.
4- Start earlier or limit entries. I vote for start earlier. I don't have a clue as to the reason as to why we had to shut down at 6. If it is because of the rumor I heard about the safety crews having put in their full day then maybe they can start at first car off and not at 8am?
5- We do need corner worker training. And not just for new people. Corner captains need to pay attention to their area and not watch the cars outside of their zone.
6- And this is my dream part. I wish when there is a DNF the driver could be notified where. I know it is too much to ask and not feasible really. Said my my last run was a DNF. Cone maybe,I had an affinity for them Saturday. DNF I doubt it. Dang Gopro battery died before that run.

All in all it was a great time. I don't know how ya'll do it. My big thanks to AJ, Mike, Cyndi, Travis, Eric, and all the other core workers who put this on. KUDOS.

Thank you all,
Steve

[srduck]

Jul 1, 2013 6:32:27 GMT -5 belcher said:

My observations for what it is worth. 1- great course much different challenge than anything else I have run.
2- Walter you did a great job as starter. I was working close to you and saw how you had to space the cars and the reasons why.
3- Numbers area big issue. There ain't no style points. Maybe manditory black on white backgound.
4- Start earlier or limit entries. I vote for start earlier. I don't have a clue as to the reason as to why we had to shut down at 6. If it is because of the rumor I heard about the safety crews having put in their full day then maybe they can start at first car off and not at 8am?
5- We do need corner worker training. And not just for new people. Corner captains need to pay attention to their area and not watch the cars outside of their zone.
6- And this is my dream part. I wish when there is a DNF the driver could be notified where. I know it is too much to ask and not feasible really. Said my my last run was a DNF. Cone maybe,I had an affinity for them Saturday. DNF I doubt it. Dang Gopro battery died before that run.

All in all it was a great time. I don't know how ya'll do it. My big thanks to AJ, Mike, Cyndi, Travis, Eric, and all the other core workers who put this on. KUDOS.

Thank you all,
Steve

3) Mandatory black on white isn't the way to go or you force almost everyone to go redo their numbers. The rulebook is pretty clear about it.

Numbers and class letters should be positioned next to each other.
All letters and numbers must be on body panels, not on windows.
All numbers and class letters must use the same typeface and the
same color, and this color must provide adequate contrast to the
background color (see Appendix F for examples).
E. Numbers must be a minimum of 8” high with a 1.25” stroke. Class
letters must be a minimum of 4” high with a 0.75” stroke. In all cases,
the height of the class letters must be between 25% and 75% of
the height of the numbers. Stroke width must be at least 10% of the
height (see Appendix F.)

While I wouldn't suggest we get out with a tape measure and check everyone's numbers for height, "contrast" isn't a difficult thing to comprehend, nor is "not on windows". I know for a fact that the low tack painters tape comes in beige, light blue, dark blue, and bright green. Surely ONE of those is contrasting on every car.


4) The last time we started early (CMP Memorial Day) there was a MASSIVE amount of whining and complaining about it... and we barely had 100 entries. We're still not sure whether it was the early start or the weather from previous years that scared them off, but... *shrug*. I'd be down for either, though. I'm on site at 6am already, so if we can get things moving at 9, HOORAY!!!

[PinkBimmer]

Thanks to Will and Steve for the feedback... we take all feedback seriously and we appreciate the feedback.. we want to know what people think we are doing good or what we are doing bad so we can improve anything. A few are getting together this week to discuss some things. I know at CMP we started at 9 because of a) the group and b) the weather.
Sometimes at events there are things that are out of any of our control. So hope everyone had a good time and will come back in July for what I'm assume is going to be a truly awesome course .. Mike always designs great courses at ZMax. And I truly loved the course on Saturday.

[integra55]

Jun 30, 2013 22:02:45 GMT -5 cwguy5 said:

here are a few ideas for what they are worth:

- numbers should be inspected at tech and car should not be passed until numbers are contrasting, sized/placed correctly, and in the proper style guidelines as far as order of letters etc.

- start all events at zMax at 9am since there is usually a large turnout there. i think the vast majority of people would be open to the trade-off of such a great site with a slightly earlier start time.

- driver's meeting: i liked the way Triad had a mandatory Novice meeting(or at least a first timer's meeting). this would shorten the time a bit for the regular DM and provide for a bit of extra detail that isn't really given at most DM's like going over cone calls in detail, course worker safety, and an opportunity for questions. most first timers are not going to ask questions in front of the whole group. this would save time later during runs imo.

- would it be possible at all to group first timers, novices, and any other cars that will be generally slower than other cars in the same run group together in grid? this could minimize the amount of slow/fast times that are back to back. i know this wouldn't be perfect of course but shouldnt take that much time if done methodically during grid loading.

- station meetings at beginning of each run group with the captain and workers at each station. this would help ensure that novice workers and captains are on the same page and using the correct signals. zMax is a large course with lots of space to cover at each station. my captain missed a DNF and one cone call and we saw the adjacent station miss a cone call as well. i know it happens but just a bit of communicating prior to the run group might reduce this. also, are non-drivers/core workers allowed on-course? seems like a big distraction to have a friend out with you on-course.

- i know the rationale behind increasing the number of cars on-course during the last group in which i was a driver and i appreciate everyone hustling to get the max number of runs in but we should never compromise the safety of the workers. i had to slow down for a course worker and i saw at least one other incidence like that in the 5:30-6:00 range due to the pace. also with regards to the last run group, if time is running short and everyone will not get all of their runs in, wouldn't it be more fair to have an even number of runs for everyone if possible. it was very obvious that many cars would not get four runs so why not just cut it off at three? im new to autoX so this just may be the way things are done and there may be a reason i am not thinking of.

*** just my two cents and i just wanted to reiterate that i still enjoyed the hell out of the day even though i was frustrated. it was obvious that everyone was doing everything possible toward the end just to get done what we did.

I think they were sorta trying that ... but there was one monkey wrench in the works ... the entire second line was supposed to get re-runs ... some of the back 2 rows got 3 and some got 2 ... the first of the 2 driver cars got 4 as did the first row .... if the re-runs had been inserted, then it probably would still have ended up with a few not getting "all" their runs (even if it had been cut off at 3) ... biggest problem was we got started too late (for that many cars, we had typical timing issues, and we had number/class designation problems + some very slow first timers ...(for which we're very thankful we're getting .... now to find how to keep them)

[CoolGuy094]

Everyone has great ideas and the feedback is exactly what we need to keep improving our events in the future. I think we (CCR) have done very well and gotten a bit of luck on our side this entire year with how "smoothly" our events have gone (smoothly in quotes because core workers still run around like headless chickens to make it work that way). And while Saturday was still pretty darn good in the scheme of things, we will learn from what went wrong and work to make it better.

Earlier start time is something to consider. Its tough because you don't want to hinder those who travel a good distance to come to zMax, but IMO getting up an hour earlier is far better than only getting 2-3 runs and being pissed off at the end of the day. Limiting entrants sucks too, because we want to be as welcoming as possible especially at a site like zMax which is one of the best in the area.

[integra55]

Jul 1, 2013 1:17:30 GMT -5 PinkBimmer said:

Yes some 3rd and 4th runs are reversed the times are right just the order of them is wrong. I had to manually insert some missing runs for some people. Since your 3rd run was missing your 4th became your 3rd, and 4th became 3rd. With 200 people it was easier for me that way. Axware when it works is beautiful and every once in awhile it has it moments and does some strange stuff. Thank goodness we have auditors, instead of spending 6 hours yesterday I'd probably still be working on it. Except for ES which I will fix in morning all rest of groups are right in times, even though order might be a tad wrong.

I think maybe my "4th" run (the first was supposed to be a re-run) was mixed up with Abby's first .... no wait ... that's where she kicked my butt ... never mind

[integra55]

Jul 1, 2013 6:32:27 GMT -5 belcher said:

My observations for what it is worth. 1- great course much different challenge than anything else I have run.
2- Walter you did a great job as starter. I was working close to you and saw how you had to space the cars and the reasons why.
3- Numbers area big issue. There ain't no style points. Maybe manditory black on white backgound.
4- Start earlier or limit entries. I vote for start earlier. I don't have a clue as to the reason as to why we had to shut down at 6. If it is because of the rumor I heard about the safety crews having put in their full day then maybe they can start at first car off and not at 8am?
5- We do need corner worker training. And not just for new people. Corner captains need to pay attention to their area and not watch the cars outside of their zone.
6- And this is my dream part. I wish when there is a DNF the driver could be notified where. I know it is too much to ask and not feasible really. Said my my last run was a DNF. Cone maybe,I had an affinity for them Saturday. DNF I doubt it. Dang Gopro battery died before that run.

All in all it was a great time. I don't know how ya'll do it. My big thanks to AJ, Mike, Cyndi, Travis, Eric, and all the other core workers who put this on. KUDOS.

Thank you all,
Steve

I talked to them before I left ... to thank them for they're being there (just public relations) .. and they pointed out that their day started a t7am (and they had let us know that was when they would be there ... they went on overtime starting at 5pm ... AJ and the rest of the "management" talked them into an additional hr .. that's how we got the extra hr .... no chance to go beyond that .... AJ, anything to add or correct

[matthugie]

Jul 1, 2013 1:17:30 GMT -5 PinkBimmer said:

Yes some 3rd and 4th runs are reversed the times are right just the order of them is wrong. I had to manually insert some missing runs for some people. Since your 3rd run was missing your 4th became your 3rd, and 4th became 3rd. With 200 people it was easier for me that way. Axware when it works is beautiful and every once in awhile it has it moments and does some strange stuff. Thank goodness we have auditors, instead of spending 6 hours yesterday I'd probably still be working on it. Except for ES which I will fix in morning all rest of groups are right in times, even though order might be a tad wrong.

My first 3 runs were correct, but my last was a 70.7xx (I have the "time slip" at home to get exact if needed), which had me in 3rd instead of 6th in class.

[integra55]

Jul 1, 2013 7:39:57 GMT -5 CoolGuy094 said:

Everyone has great ideas and the feedback is exactly what we need to keep improving our events in the future. I think we (CCR) have done very well and gotten a bit of luck on our side this entire year with how "smoothly" our events have gone (smoothly in quotes because core workers still run around like headless chickens to make it work that way). And while Saturday was still pretty darn good in the scheme of things, we will learn from what went wrong and work to make it better.

Earlier start time is something to consider. Its tough because you don't want to hinder those who travel a good distance to come to zMax, but IMO getting up an hour earlier is far better than only getting 2-3 runs and being pissed off at the end of the day. Limiting entrants sucks too, because we want to be as welcoming as possible especially at a site like zMax which is one of the best in the area.

I would never try to speak for someone else .. (though I guess this is sorta what I'm doing LOL ) but the WNC contingent (including Brian Guinn and Clyde Stahl... some others from the G'ville area) travel about as far as any (I realize some come from the Raleigh area and others from Va..) but we leave ~ 5:30 and get there in plenty of time to set up, reg., walk the course and generally socialize .... so an earlier start SHOULDN'T be a hinderance to the out-of-towners


guess I'm posting so much on this thread 'cause I wanted one more shot at Abby ( well driven Abby )

[markt]

Thanks to all who made this one of the largest turnouts for a CCR Autocross. Apologies to those that had their day cut short due to restraints placed on us by the venue(safety & fire). Since I was one pushing for an earlier start time at CMP(feel free to grumble at me) I think it would be good to apply the same standard at Z-Max when entries go over 150 or just make it the standard start time for the venue. Unlike Knight's Stadium where we could play well into the evening, Z-Max isn't so flexible. Life is trade-offs and Utopia, unfortunately, is not an option.

And, to those that eventually want to road race, you may have your first Call to Grid coming around 7:45 so be forewarned

[PinkBimmer]

Jul 1, 2013 7:49:53 GMT -5 matthugie said:

Jul 1, 2013 1:17:30 GMT -5 PinkBimmer said:

Yes some 3rd and 4th runs are reversed the times are right just the order of them is wrong. I had to manually insert some missing runs for some people. Since your 3rd run was missing your 4th became your 3rd, and 4th became 3rd. With 200 people it was easier for me that way. Axware when it works is beautiful and every once in awhile it has it moments and does some strange stuff. Thank goodness we have auditors, instead of spending 6 hours yesterday I'd probably still be working on it. Except for ES which I will fix in morning all rest of groups are right in times, even though order might be a tad wrong.

My first 3 runs were correct, but my last was a 70.7xx (I have the "time slip" at home to get exact if needed), which had me in 3rd instead of 6th in class.

Ok just let me know the time tonight and I'll correct it for you. its no problem

[PinkBimmer]

Nevermind Matt... I found it a 70.786 I'll get it corrected and it will show up in final results in a few.
thanks!

[matthugie]

Jul 1, 2013 8:25:16 GMT -5 PinkBimmer said:

Nevermind Matt... I found it a 70.786 I'll get it corrected and it will show up in final results in a few.
thanks!

Awesome, thanks!

[lancer360]

Thanks for the suggestions Will.

We have toyed with the idea of a 9am start, but we are a bit nervous about it. We tried it at CMP this year and the turn out was horrible. Numerous people complained. Granted CMP is a much longer driver for most people compared to Zmax. Many of our competitors are SCR folks and that could place an unreasonable burden on them and force them not to come eliminating the need for a 9am start so it is a tricky decision. It is something the Solo Chiefs and core workers will have to discuss. Typical Zmax events in the past have been around 170 entrants and with no hiccups we have been done and packed up by 3-3:30 so 200 is doable with a 10 am start. It doesn't leave much room for hiccups though. Another option is to consider going to 3 runs if the number of entries exceeds a certain number.

Shouldn't be too hard to incorporate a quick Novice meeting at the start or after the finish of the Novice walk to go over signaling cone calls etc.

We specifically have Novices run with their base class to spread them out throughout the run groups. At times we have a fairly large novice class and if they were all in one run group then they would all be working at the same time too. This poses a potential hazard having that many novices working the course with fewer experienced workers. When possible we could look at trying not to group slow classes with faster classes (i.e. avoid HS with SS). That probably won't always work out though depending on the number of entries and the large PAX classes like Pro, Intermediate, and Tire.

Not a bad idea to have workers check in with the corner captain of the station they are manning. This way the captain knows who his workers are and can send them to the spots he wants. I think some most people do this already, but can't hurt to have the Worker Chief remind people to check in with their captain and to let each captain know how many workers he will have before he heads out to his station.

[xeric13x]

See how a 9:30 start goes and then go to 9:00?

[jprice130]

I see a lot of folks talking about an earlier start time (i.e. 9:00 or 9:30) and I personally wouldn't be opposed to that, but in the case of this event, we didn't get the first cars (or karts) off at 10:00. I don't remember the exact start time, but I want to say that it was 15-20 minutes beyond 10:00. That 15-20 minutes would've gone a long way toward helping group 4 get all their runs.

Now, I know the core workers were there as soon as the gates opened at 6:00 and that the Friday night storms threw the cones we setup on Friday all over the place. Couple that with the fact that the club had to get 200+ entries sorted and grouped, and I think the prospect of getting everything ready to go earlier than 10:00 is a tall order.

Another thing to consider about earlier start times would be the available sunlight for spring and fall events. Starting at 9:00 AM would require core workers to arrive when it's pitch dark during non-summer events and would greatly inhibit the speed at which they could get things going.

In summary, I think if we work to get the first car off right at 10:00 and crack down on numbers/letters, then I think we'll be able to handle 200+ entries with no problems.

[donour]

Jul 1, 2013 7:16:57 GMT -5 PinkBimmer said:

A few are getting together this week to discuss some things.

That sounds like a solid plan. I'd like to be involved if possible. I've had the opportunity to work as op steward and/or event chair for many national events. The time management problem is certainly not unique to CCR.

I definitely think there's time to get 5 runs for 200 people without having to start before 10am.

donour

[donour]

[double post]

[cwguy5]

Jul 1, 2013 8:42:48 GMT -5 lancer360 said:

Thanks for the suggestions Will.

We specifically have Novices run with their base class to spread them out throughout the run groups. At times we have a fairly large novice class and if they were all in one run group then they would all be working at the same time too. This poses a potential hazard having that many novices working the course with fewer experienced workers. When possible we could look at trying not to group slow classes with faster classes (i.e. avoid HS with SS). That probably won't always work out though depending on the number of entries and the large PAX classes like Pro, Intermediate, and Tire.

i may not have been clear about the Novices running together. i meant the novices already placed into a particular run group run next to each other in that run group. it would require the grid workers to place cars in grid instead of just filling up the spots. it is probably not worth the effort but it was a little disconcerting to see Diapice almost run down the car in front of him each time.

[integra55]

Jul 1, 2013 10:15:04 GMT -5 donour said:

Jul 1, 2013 7:16:57 GMT -5 PinkBimmer said:

A few are getting together this week to discuss some things.

That sounds like a solid plan. I'd like to be involved if possible. I've had the opportunity to work as op steward and/or event chair for many national events. The time management problem is certainly not unique to CCR.

I definitely think there's time to get 5 runs for 200 people without having to start before 10am.

donour

if we started at 10am that would be fine ... if the first competitor left the line at 10:15+/- ... keep in mind that was pretty close to 30 min of jr. carts ... (this is NOT a rant against jr. carts) ... but they take a lot of time ... that combined with over 200 entrants + the usual type of glitches = this past Sat.

that's why (and like I posted earlier.. I'm one of those that has to drive a long ways) I think an earlier start time is needed

since we usually have the lot set up the day before, I don't see the hang up why a 9:30 (or even God forbid 9:00) start can't happen ... IMHO ... if people want to a-x, they can get up early enough to get to the site in time to make sure the day can be completed

as for the light turn-out at CMP, I think it was more in response to past yrs weather than having to give up Sat night partying so they could get up in time to drive to the event

[yellow CR]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. It's all appreciated.

We will be having a meeting this week to discuss what went wrong, and why the amount of re-runs we encountered this past weekend was so high. We must have had over 100 extra re-runs thoughout the day, which is the main reason we ran too long.

As for starting earlier, I agree with Joe Price completely and I am not in favor of this for the reasons he stated above. We also need time to get people through tech and reg, and give people enough time to walk what is always a long course at zMax. Last year we did 186 driver and were finished by 3PM, so 200 shouldn't be a problem with a 10AM start.

And I do agree, a Number Police Force should be enacted. If you want to head up the NPF Chris, you got it.

[yokramer]

Jul 1, 2013 8:42:48 GMT -5 lancer360 said:

Thanks for the suggestions Will.

We have toyed with the idea of a 9am start, but we are a bit nervous about it. We tried it at CMP this year and the turn out was horrible. Numerous people complained. Granted CMP is a much longer driver for most people compared to Zmax. Many of our competitors are SCR folks and that could place an unreasonable burden on them and force them not to come eliminating the need for a 9am start so it is a tricky decision. It is something the Solo Chiefs and core workers will have to discuss. Typical Zmax events in the past have been around 170 entrants and with no hiccups we have been done and packed up by 3-3:30 so 200 is doable with a 10 am start. It doesn't leave much room for hiccups though. Another option is to consider going to 3 runs if the number of entries exceeds a certain number.

We could always plan for a 4 run day and adjust on how the first run group goes. I think if it would have changed for the first run group, which ran longer than normal days at Zmax, we wouldnt have had as many issues.


But as always the core workers did an awesome job and still were very helpful even outside of their daily duties. The course was amazing just wish I had more time on it :/

[lancer360]

No problem Mike! Glad to help where ever it is needed. I'll drop a tape measure into my autocross bag.

[cr89x]

Some have already said this for me, but I need to take it further. THANK YOU ALL for the insights!! At 6pm I instantly went around asking wtf happened. CCR is feedback driven as many have said. Many have noticed how well we have been listening to the membership and participants. This is what makes this club as good as it is and get better. The part that I want to go further on. In the past, all people would do is surface what all the problems were or speculate about them. THANK YOU ALL for instead of criticizing, coming up with possible solutions!!! This is a BIG help and makes me pleased with the role I take on when things go wrong instead of dreading it.

As always I will thank the core workers until I get that look of stfu you've said it enough already. I continue to do so though becuase this group is truly INCREDIBLE, and there is no way these events would happen and as well as they do without them. THANK YOU!!

However, I did drop the ball on this event BIG time. For every success I give those that work their butts off the credit, eventhough Mike and I seem to catch the "lime light". However, in these times of dismay, I will always take the responisbility. The core workers did everything they should have and could. I should have been there and noticed there were problems. I appologize to all!

Now. I like some of the suggestions put forth. There are too many for me to comment on, but thank you for offering solutions. Many have crossed my mind already. Some take my thoughts even further. Some should be normal practice in my mind but not everyone thinks the same way.

Of course we will strive to fix these problems. Those who know me, my core workers see this all the time, I constantly strive for continuous improvement. If we have problems, we problem solve and fix them quickly. We learn from mistakes and typically don't repeat them. Even when events go great, I find things to improve on. A lot of times the core group even comes up with improvements that I don't notice. THAT is how great this group is!!
Thanks for those who have stepped up to speak amongst the core group. Thanks to those members that support this club so much to speak up for us as well. I am blessed to be apart of this group.



PLEASE as always keep the comments coming. If you are too shy to post publicly, private message me please! If you want to make complaints and don't want to stir the pot publicly, private message me please! Also, email works! To get ahold of both Mike and myself, [e-mail] gets forwarded to us automatically.

[r0ssofnc]

It would probably be worth while to remind the course worker that cover the finish to be mindful about not running through the timing lights during the drivers meeting.