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Post by drum3 on Jul 1, 2013 19:44:21 GMT -5
1st kart off was at 10:27 , I checked my phone just as they rolled to the line . Starting at 9:30 shouldnt be big deal to most . Those that travel long distances for the event are pretty used to leaving at ungodly hours for autocrosses and tend to be the most dedicated of our groups. daylight isnt that much of a deal breaker either , winter to summer its light enough to see by 6:30 and most of the set-up has been done on Friday. If you need you can always draft some experienced help from the surrounding clubs to expedite final touches on Saturday morning.
1st run group , with the karts , took 1 hour 45 minutes . We had 3-4 cars on course the entire time and only a spin caused even a close call near the finish. Difference being , you had Pro working the course , they hustled , reset cones and made quick precise cone calls. Run group 2 took 2 hours 5 minutes with no Karts , The Jr Karts were not the problem at all. Corner captains with experience and car intervals are key . No more than 25 seconds between cars . The Pros and Intermediates running together should mean 95% of the cars following each other are similar skill levels . Only on very few ocassions should you need any more time.
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Post by mcoolong on Jul 1, 2013 22:20:04 GMT -5
As Far as number go I like some of the numbers that I believe I saw from someone from Triad had posted that could be printed. I work for a copier company and have access to copiers all the time. I would be more than happy to pre-print sets of numbers and class listings that could be taped with some painters tap for better visibility if there was some interest. I have access to plenty of paper as well.  Mike Coolong |
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Post by z3elda on Jul 1, 2013 22:32:46 GMT -5
We have several opportunities for improvement.
As others have eluded to: We have so many new faces at every event- we have to find a way to educate them a bit before they chase their first cones. Some of that falls on me this time. We cover alot at the drivers meeting - but I don't cover everything you need to know, and judgement on Red Flags and cone resets come with experience anyway. That said, it's obvious by some of the course work that some either forgot or didn't pay attention during the drivers meeting. The vast majoritity do a really good job, but alot of the re-runs were because of inattention/slow reaction on course. We can change this.
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Post by integra55 on Jul 2, 2013 5:36:12 GMT -5
FWIW , red flags are a pet peeve of mine .... example from Sat ... a car spun mid-course, wiped out a bunch of cones, was slow getting re-started .... the call for red flag went out ... there was a car finishing the last 1/4 of the course ...
a worker in that area got the red flag out and SORTA started waving it around (as though they were trying to keep some mosquitos off them ... IOW, just sorta waving it around) there was ZERO reason for that car to be stopped
even bigger problem, that worker didn't get the drivers attention ... they didn't even slow down ... (there wasn't any reason for them to slow down, but if they had, that would have been ANOTHER re-run)
needed red flags on an early portion of the course doesn't necessitate full course red flag ... causing everyone (that didn't cause the flag) to have to do re-runs
corner captains HAVE to be able to us their own discretion ... and when they do need to use the flag they have to do whatever is necessary to get the driver to stop
when there's a need for a full course red flag, the flagger HAS to get the drivers attention ....
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Post by srduck on Jul 2, 2013 7:37:24 GMT -5
At hillclimbs, the call is made "Hold below <station>". If a car spins at station 3, there's no sense in red flagging everything after that.... so captains would have to know where they are and call or respond to calls like "HOLD BEFORE 3!" That lets cars on course in front of the incident finish without a problem and quickly conveys where the issue actually IS. Is this the way we need to be teaching and doing red flag calls?
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Post by drum3 on Jul 2, 2013 7:39:59 GMT -5
One thing you might want to consider for events this big is a couple of designated experienced corner captains for each heat . As the workers are filing out to their stations have these corner Captains stop by each station for a quick course work instruction talk and then ask them to also keep an eye on the surrounding stations and have them offer advice or more help to any corner that may be struggling . You might could also just designate a Chief of Course for each run group who's only job is to make sure the course work and start intervals work well together .
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Post by dusterbd13 on Jul 2, 2013 8:40:33 GMT -5
ill happily volunteer to be a corner captain or whatnot. even if im not racing.
and i agree with flagging prior to the incident.
on the other hand, with hpde/tt/road racing, we flag the entire track as there may need to be ambulance, tow, etc. i can see the merits of both approaches. for autocross, i see this being less likely of a red flag outcome than in track.
michael
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Post by integra55 on Jul 2, 2013 8:43:00 GMT -5
the difference with the track stuff is that the cars will be coming around to the problem if not stopped ... at an a-x, not the case
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Post by n2mini on Jul 2, 2013 13:19:29 GMT -5
I can understand the novices not being prepared car number/class wise but after running a few events you should be better prepared.. Someone a page or so back mentioned they could print off a bunch ( and it would take a bunch over the course of a year ) of numbers and class letters and ask the novices as they register what they plan to use.. Force them to use what numbers you have available to give them. Maybe sell to others for buck a car. For anyone who runs often and hasn't bought a set of magnets you can make you own by getting a W-S Sunday paper, that usually has a 50% coupon from AC Moores, which you can buy a magnet sheet and either free hand cut what you need or buy a stencil to use, and or buy a set of vinyl numbers to lay on there and cut them out.. I just keep cutting more vinyl to use but I have access to it. I know most don't..
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Post by yokramer on Jul 2, 2013 14:50:45 GMT -5
I can understand the novices not being prepared car number/class wise but after running a few events you should be better prepared.. Someone a page or so back mentioned they could print off a bunch ( and it would take a bunch over the course of a year ) of numbers and class letters and ask the novices as they register what they plan to use.. Force them to use what numbers you have available to give them. Maybe sell to others for buck a car. For anyone who runs often and hasn't bought a set of magnets you can make you own by getting a W-S Sunday paper, that usually has a 50% coupon from AC Moores, which you can buy a magnet sheet and either free hand cut what you need or buy a stencil to use, and or buy a set of vinyl numbers to lay on there and cut them out.. I just keep cutting more vinyl to use but I have access to it. I know most don't.. I got the magnetic vent covers from Lowes and I cut them out free hand and have had many people say they are their favorite ones out there. I think total investment was <$20 |
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Post by yellow CR on Jul 2, 2013 17:59:02 GMT -5
No problem Mike! Glad to help where ever it is needed. I'll drop a tape measure into my autocross bag. Chris, what do you want your title to be? Being the head of the Number Police Force (NPF) should have a title. Capt. Chris Ross of the NPF maybe? We can also get you a plastic badge too. |
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Post by msennati on Jul 2, 2013 20:10:13 GMT -5
[/quote]Chris, what do you want your title to be? Being the head of the Number Police Force (NPF) should have a title.
Capt. Chris Ross of the NPF maybe? We can also get you a plastic badge too.[/quote]
How about "Deputy Fife"
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cwguy5
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by cwguy5 on Jul 2, 2013 20:53:25 GMT -5
I can understand the novices not being prepared car number/class wise but after running a few events you should be better prepared.. Someone a page or so back mentioned they could print off a bunch ( and it would take a bunch over the course of a year ) of numbers and class letters and ask the novices as they register what they plan to use.. Force them to use what numbers you have available to give them. Maybe sell to others for buck a car. For anyone who runs often and hasn't bought a set of magnets you can make you own by getting a W-S Sunday paper, that usually has a 50% coupon from AC Moores, which you can buy a magnet sheet and either free hand cut what you need or buy a stencil to use, and or buy a set of vinyl numbers to lay on there and cut them out.. I just keep cutting more vinyl to use but I have access to it. I know most don't.. im not sure if they want to have the responsibility of selling numbers but i cant speak for the core workers. maybe a vendor could set up and provide some options. also, on the course map there could be some basic instructions on numbers with maybe a pic or two as a gentle reminder. to go one step further, there could be a "safety" sheet with some safety details, cone calls, and number guidelines. it could possibly be printed on the back of the course map to save paper. |
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Post by xeric13x on Jul 2, 2013 22:21:38 GMT -5
I think what has already been suggested about having Tech be number police and someone checking numbers before each run group will stop all number issues.
It may not be a bad idea to have another table and chairs set up with a couple people that is specifically to help novices that Registration can refer n00bs to for any questions and Tech can refer people to help them get things like numbers sorted out. Almost, like a event help desk.
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Post by Frodo on Jul 2, 2013 22:56:33 GMT -5
All very good ideas and even better input. Something does need to be done. Whether we crack down at registration or tech or both. It was no one 'sections' fault. The Numbers Police Force should be of great help especially for big events like zMax/CMP/Black Lake etc. as second run group took entirely too long. Having been in the trailer during that group there was a need to re-class too many cars and too many cars with numbers and latter that we couldn't make out from 15 feet away from a stationary car at the start. So I can't imagine the workers on course fared any better at it. As for calling in cone calls and DNF's we tried our best to put very experienced autocrossers as corner captains. But an issue that we faced going into group 3 for example was a lack of workers. The course was stretched thin for workers and this carried over into group 4. It's a simple principle: If you drive then you work; don't work and you lose your times. I personally have no problem watching your fastest times disappear because you didn't work, it's just a simple extension of that pinky to the Delete key. And I walked all through grid for third group making that very clear. And once you're checked in for your work assignment you NEED to go do it. Not check in and sit back down and wait. I think this contributed to the workers on course for groups 3 and 4 being stretched thin. We change our workers on the fly like most any other club.
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Post by 05astock on Jul 3, 2013 3:45:44 GMT -5
At hillclimbs, the call is made "Hold below <station>". If a car spins at station 3, there's no sense in red flagging everything after that.... so captains would have to know where they are and call or respond to calls like "HOLD BEFORE 3!" That lets cars on course in front of the incident finish without a problem and quickly conveys where the issue actually IS. Is this the way we need to be teaching and doing red flag calls? I like this idea but it seems like too much to ask for common sense. Also I've mentioned this before cars that are being red flagged need to get off the race line ASAP, they could be the reason for the red flag from dropping coolant or oil over the track and reduce clean up time. It doesn't happen often but when it does it's it takes awhile for clean up. |
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Post by tsivart on Jul 3, 2013 18:37:15 GMT -5
All very good ideas and even better input. Something does need to be done. Whether we crack down at registration or tech or both. It was no one 'sections' fault. The Numbers Police Force should be of great help especially for big events like zMax/CMP/Black Lake etc. as second run group took entirely too long. Having been in the trailer during that group there was a need to re-class too many cars and too many cars with numbers and latter that we couldn't make out from 15 feet away from a stationary car at the start. So I can't imagine the workers on course fared any better at it. As for calling in cone calls and DNF's we tried our best to put very experienced autocrossers as corner captains. But an issue that we faced going into group 3 for example was a lack of workers. The course was stretched thin for workers and this carried over into group 4. It's a simple principle: If you drive then you work; don't work and you lose your times. I personally have no problem watching your fastest times disappear because you didn't work, it's just a simple extension of that pinky to the Delete key. And I walked all through grid for third group making that very clear. And once you're checked in for your work assignment you NEED to go do it. Not check in and sit back down and wait. I think this contributed to the workers on course for groups 3 and 4 being stretched thin. We change our workers on the fly like most any other club. Completely agree Josh... I like what Will guy said about having worker meetings before each run group... I see only 1 issue there... In group 4 I had a guy come up to me 2 runs in and ask for his work assignment. Point being that we would need to have everyone be prompt with getting to the workers meetings and they simply are not always there. I do like the idea though... especially for ZMAX just need to hammer out how we could make that work. |
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Post by ukfpilot on Jul 3, 2013 19:12:11 GMT -5
I worked run group 3 station 3 and I know that we were stretched REALLY THIN. There were only 3 of us there, unless I missed someone. A couple of the workers from group 2 stayed out there a really long time after they should have went in because we were so short. I was trying to watch in front of me and behind me with cars coming both directions at the same time. I missed a missing cone behind me once and Mike Bright had to stop and point it out and get a rerun. It was just a matter of not enough workers during this run group, or at least not at the right places. I don't know the car counts per group, but it seemed to me that there were fewer cars in Run Group 1, which would explain the worker situation during work group 3. But like I said, I don't know the car counts or anything. I just know that we were covering a very large area out there both in front of us and behind us. I think that all things considered, there were not that many reruns during that time because of missed cones. And it really was a great course! I just wish that I had went faster....
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Post by apexemall on Jul 3, 2013 19:26:04 GMT -5
Everyone has great ideas and the feedback is exactly what we need to keep improving our events in the future. I think we (CCR) have done very well and gotten a bit of luck on our side this entire year with how "smoothly" our events have gone (smoothly in quotes because core workers still run around like headless chickens to make it work that way). And while Saturday was still pretty darn good in the scheme of things, we will learn from what went wrong and work to make it better. Earlier start time is something to consider. Its tough because you don't want to hinder those who travel a good distance to come to zMax, but IMO getting up an hour earlier is far better than only getting 2-3 runs and being pissed off at the end of the day. Limiting entrants sucks too, because we want to be as welcoming as possible especially at a site like zMax which is one of the best in the area. I would never try to speak for someone else .. (though I guess this is sorta what I'm doing LOL ) but the WNC contingent (including Brian Guinn and Clyde Stahl... some others from the G'ville area) travel about as far as any (I realize some come from the Raleigh area and others from Va..) but we leave ~ 5:30 and get there in plenty of time to set up, reg., walk the course and generally socialize .... so an earlier start SHOULDN'T be a hinderance to the out-of-towners guess I'm posting so much on this thread 'cause I wanted one more shot at Abby ( well driven Abby  ) On start times: I think Walter is being a little too generous with my sleep time. Getting up at 0500 works - barely. Getting up at 0400 is a stretch for an old man. Zmax is a big lot and I would not want to lose any course walk time. 10:00 start time is just fine. On numbers: Need to play hardball - period. On Novices: Atlanta gives each one a big "N" to tape to the car and does not record times. They get time slip and that's it. They all run together in their run group. On number of runs. Minimum of 3. With 200 cars at Zmax, that should be it. Fun runs if there is extra time at the end. Clyde Stahl STX 6 |
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Post by chewbaccadefense on Jul 4, 2013 20:43:02 GMT -5
I would never try to speak for someone else .. (though I guess this is sorta what I'm doing LOL ) but the WNC contingent (including Brian Guinn and Clyde Stahl... some others from the G'ville area) travel about as far as any (I realize some come from the Raleigh area and others from Va..) but we leave ~ 5:30 and get there in plenty of time to set up, reg., walk the course and generally socialize .... so an earlier start SHOULDN'T be a hinderance to the out-of-towners guess I'm posting so much on this thread 'cause I wanted one more shot at Abby ( well driven Abby ) On start times: I think Walter is being a little too generous with my sleep time. Getting up at 0500 works - barely. Getting up at 0400 is a stretch for an old man. Zmax is a big lot and I would not want to lose any course walk time. 10:00 start time is just fine. On numbers: Need to play hardball - period. On Novices: Atlanta gives each one a big "N" to tape to the car and does not record times. They get time slip and that's it. They all run together in their run group. On number of runs. Minimum of 3. With 200 cars at Zmax, that should be it. Fun runs if there is extra time at the end. Clyde Stahl STX 6 I pay as much money as someone who doesn't have an "N" no their car, so not recording my time isn't a good solution, nor does it really serve any purpose other than to emphasize that I haven't run as long as most of those who don't. Admittedly, I am unlikely to run Novice anymore as I have run 4 events in novice, and while CCR has a end of year novice winner, I don't feel like I need to run novice. Nor does the blame for what happened really need to be laid at the feet of the novice class. One thing people seem to miss is that the final run group would have gotten all of their runs in if the VW hadn't broken down. That took quite some time to clear up. Maybe we need to have a tow strap, and get people out of the way when the break down very quickly. Also note that if your desire is to grow the number of people running events regularly, treating novices like second class autocrossers will certainly have a negative effect on that goal. |
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Post by CoolGuy094 on Jul 4, 2013 22:23:47 GMT -5
Wait... a VW broke down on course??? That has to be a first.
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Post by drum3 on Jul 5, 2013 5:41:55 GMT -5
Chewbacca is right , we had as many or more novices in run group 1 as any run group ,,yet group 1 , even with the jr karts , ran quicker than any group except possibly Pro's run group. You cant blame Novices or the Jr karts .
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Post by cr89x on Jul 5, 2013 8:16:56 GMT -5
Chewbacca you are entirely right.
I've seen clubs handle novices in a few different ways. Running with base class instead of one group is the best thing to do on a worker standpoint. I don't see that ever changing in CCR. We do go back and forth on whether or not novice class should have a season championship though. There are benefits that we see. Novice class has been interesting to watch the last two years. There has been some good competition and from a good number of drivers.
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Post by Frodo on Jul 5, 2013 8:24:44 GMT -5
I worked run group 3 station 3 and I know that we were stretched REALLY THIN. There were only 3 of us there, unless I missed someone. A couple of the workers from group 2 stayed out there a really long time after they should have went in because we were so short. I was trying to watch in front of me and behind me with cars coming both directions at the same time. I missed a missing cone behind me once and Mike Bright had to stop and point it out and get a rerun. It was just a matter of not enough workers during this run group, or at least not at the right places. I don't know the car counts per group, but it seemed to me that there were fewer cars in Run Group 1, which would explain the worker situation during work group 3. But like I said, I don't know the car counts or anything. I just know that we were covering a very large area out there both in front of us and behind us. I think that all things considered, there were not that many reruns during that time because of missed cones. And it really was a great course! I just wish that I had went faster.... It's not there was more or less car in the group. Admittedly, yes, they generally aren't exactly even. One may have a few more than another but nothing drastic. I believe the reason group 1 seemed to have less cars is that Pro class ran third group and they generally are off the course quickly and the next car is already coming past you. They fly through and it's a more constant flowing of cars which makes it seems like more. Novices weren't a hold up for this event. They do generally take longer to do their runs, and that's fine and to be expected. I believe that's why they run with their base class to spread out the longer time between everyone else. Nor did the VW breaking down in group 4 qualify as a major delay. No offense to it's drivers, but it breaks down more than most of the cars at the event as it is a purpose built car, but they always get it off course and out of the way in a timely manner. Only took ten minutes to get it out of the way. Unfortunately it happened during the abbreviated 4th run group, which I was a part of for anyone who wants to jump on me for saying it wasn't a big delay. If you want to put any kind of blame on the event it's simple: 1. People not classing their cars properly 2. People not putting correct class and numbers on their car 3. Improper representation of classes and numbers on cars making them difficult to read for timing and course workers. (These three went hand in hand VERY much for a lot of setback especially with group 2 drivers) 4. Workers not going to do their work assignments. (If you think we're kidding when we say your times will be lost you are sorely mistaken. I get personal joy at teaching people a lesson. So please humor me by not working.) |
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Post by belcher on Jul 5, 2013 8:32:22 GMT -5
Having a novice championship is why I'm still running novice. It's fun to have some friendly competition between Will and Trey. A of people come out and run novice just to see if they like doing this sport. The hope is that they will and stick around. By having a championship based on ones experience (or lack of) reduces the feeling of hopelessness by getting beat by more experienced drivers. I like the novice, intermediate, pro steps. It was like when I raced bikes way back when. That was based on a points system.
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Post by chewbaccadefense on Jul 5, 2013 19:06:59 GMT -5
I want to make sure I also say that not once have I ever felt like a second class autocrosser at a CCR event. Everyone has been more than welcoming, and I'm making some cool friends. Thanks for putting on such great autocrosses guys, you hooked me.
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Post by Ashley on Jul 5, 2013 21:50:20 GMT -5
I worked run group 3 station 3 and I know that we were stretched REALLY THIN. There were only 3 of us there, unless I missed someone. A couple of the workers from group 2 stayed out there a really long time after they should have went in because we were so short. I was trying to watch in front of me and behind me with cars coming both directions at the same time. I missed a missing cone behind me once and Mike Bright had to stop and point it out and get a rerun. It was just a matter of not enough workers during this run group, or at least not at the right places. I don't know the car counts per group, but it seemed to me that there were fewer cars in Run Group 1, which would explain the worker situation during work group 3. But like I said, I don't know the car counts or anything. I just know that we were covering a very large area out there both in front of us and behind us. I think that all things considered, there were not that many reruns during that time because of missed cones. And it really was a great course! I just wish that I had went faster.... I was with you at corner 3 and we for sure were stretched thin! I for sure hope the people that didn't work get their times deleted... or they'll feel the wrath of Ashley  As for numbers, I can try to print off some paper ones too and maybe put in a folder for the tech guys to have in case they need to hand some out. |
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Post by PinkBimmer on Jul 6, 2013 4:53:35 GMT -5
Yes Ashley times for people who didn't work are disqualified. Went through the workers and times last night with Mike and we agreed which ones should be disqualified.
Sorry it has taken so long but there was a lot of stuff to get through to make sure the results are accurate.
But thanks to Mike all the paperwork is now caught up after a few hours of his help last night. So big thanks to him for that.
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Post by cr89x on Jul 6, 2013 6:58:15 GMT -5
Having a novice championship is why I'm still running novice. It's fun to have some friendly competition between Will and Trey. A of people come out and run novice just to see if they like doing this sport. The hope is that they will and stick around. By having a championship based on ones experience (or lack of) reduces the feeling of hopelessness by getting beat by more experienced drivers. I like the novice, intermediate, pro steps. It was like when I raced bikes way back when. That was based on a points system. Precisely! As I said we keep going back and forth on the subject. I agree it helps retention of novices. Way to go Frodo! Ashley, I promise you they will be as cyndi posted. I have done it in the past and will continue to do so. I usual dsq before I post so they never see their times after an event. Plus now those folks will get a "nasty gram" email notifying them that they will have to work twice at their next event to make up for it. And they have to make up the work before they get to drive. Done it before! Noobs and vets alike. I was worker steward for a few years. I take the working an event very .... Seriously. |
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Post by drum3 on Jul 6, 2013 7:11:06 GMT -5
If you want to put any kind of blame on the event it's simple: 1. People not classing their cars properly 2. People not putting correct class and numbers on their car 3. Improper representation of classes and numbers on cars making them difficult to read for timing and course workers. (These three went hand in hand VERY much for a lot of setback especially with group 2 drivers) 4. Workers not going to do their work assignments. (If you think we're kidding when we say your times will be lost you are sorely mistaken. I get personal joy at teaching people a lesson. So please humor me by not working.) If this is truly the reason for the slow down ,, its pretty simple to just position the trailer so you can stay 3-4 cars ahead when putting them in the system ,, if you get to one classed incorrectly or with unreadable numbers simply have them pull out of line and wait until you have time to sort them out or they fix their numbers to a readable configuration. Although this caused minor slow downs ,, the 40+ second gaps between cars also added a significant amount . I sent them faster than any starter and was still what I thought was slow at 25-30 seconds per car . I would have preferred 20-25 . Run group 2 for example , 50 cars , 200 runs . Add 15 seconds to half , 10 seconds to the other half ,,,you end up with more than 40 minutes extra for that heat..... Add 10 seconds per run for 800 runs ,,,,thats over 2 HOURS per event . Dont say "its just 10 seconds per car" as I heard earlier in the thread ,, car spacing is huge . On the National level its 18-20 seconds per car , locally I try to get it between 22-25 seconds for the majority of cars ,,thats more than 1/3 of the course ,only in extreme cases should that be stretched and in some ( a novice following a KM) in can be cut to about 15-20 seconds. Numbers , more cars keyed in the system and better car gaps . |
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