NCR's team autocross idea

[Sisko99]

saabstory said:

So, i would add the Loti that are Furd Powered....

Not anything recent. The Elise and the Exige are Toyota powered....

[trickbrick]

Overall this sounds like a really neat, fun idea. I would actually be interested in this idea...the only problem is, I already know I can't make ALL the events. I won't know until mid-March what my summer plans are... The other problem is I gotta actually get my old VW put back together so I can bring it up here! (The never-ending project!) I will keep an eye on this idea...maybe I'll have to jump in next season or something.

[jbyrd]

trickbrick said:

Overall this sounds like a really neat, fun idea. I would actually be interested in this idea...the only problem is, I already know I can't make ALL the events. I won't know until mid-March what my summer plans are... The other problem is I gotta actually get my old VW put back together so I can bring it up here! (The never-ending project!) I will keep an eye on this idea...maybe I'll have to jump in next season or something.

Overall, it is a really neat idea. I can't wait to read next year's thread about the same subject. ;D

[lagunamiata]

Ok JB, we get that you don't like the idea...

If you don't like it and don't have anything worth adding to the discussion, don't post... and nobody is making you participate in the team competition either.

[trickbrick]

Oh yeah...I forgot... quick thought:

I agree that it would be nice to also try to keep it from becoming a manufacturer competition... Although it's cool that certain manufacturers are well-represented, isn't the whole idea of being on a "team" having a variety of people work together? Wouldn't it be even more fun to have a variety of people and a variety of manufacturers?

[jbyrd]

lagunamiata said:

Ok JB, we get that you don't like the idea...

If you don't like it and don't have anything worth adding to the discussion, don't post... and nobody is making you participate in the team competition either.

It's not that at all...I liked your idea when you proposed it, and presented NCR's rules (which obviously work well). But your original idea (which was valid) has turned into last year's idea.

It's 8 days before the first TnT, and 9 days before the first event.

Who's going to keep score? What are the Rules?

There hasn't been even one "team" established yet.....only some "wishful" thinking....and even that "wishful" team is is declaring a whole new rule-set because it doesn't like the one's you spelled out. Your (NCR's) rules are valid, but somehow that idea needs to be changed to accomodate a brand of car?? Like it or not, PAX is what we got to equalize.

Why stay on the pot when all you've got is constipation?

[lagunamiata]

Dave and I talked about this. His thought was to offer it up at the first event and then have the competition for the rest of the season. Since we only have a small portion of the participants that visit the forum on a regular basis, we're missing some potential participants.

I've gotten the OK from NCR to use their rules, so we don't have to write anything ourselves.

I don't think it matters if we do teams based on make of car, favorite beer, lack of hair, age... really doesn't matter.

Since we're taking the top PAX times across multiple classes, if you have a team of 5 350Zs, two in BS and three in BSP, you're not getting the benefit of having the chance of top finishes across multiple classes.

As for who's going to keep score and the rules, we can use NCR's rules. Score keeper... dunno yet. We should have someone that isn't going to compete, so they don't have any temptation to muck with the numbers.

[lagunamiata]

I just went back and read the previous page... I see what you mean JB...

Makes me sorry I even brought it up now...

[crash477]

Well team Subaru has:

Me in STU
Shane in DS
Jeff in STS
Matt in STU
Charlie in STX
Mike in STX (if he runs)

so we have our bases covered!!

[Sisko99]

Ok..so maybe the idea isn't new. But I still don't see why JB has to be such a jerk about it. I get enough snide commentary at work, thanks. I don't need any more when I check a message board. If you're not interested...take your opinion and go somewhere else with it.

Rich, as you said....the teams can be anything the team wants it to be. Just because a few groups want to run with other cars of their make doesn't mean other's will not form teams based upon other criteria. Hell...I have a friend who AutoX's a DS WRX and he wanted to join the Nissan team because he owns an old 280 (It's in the process of being restored). Just to throw a freaking monkey wrench in JB's arguement, I'll probably take him up on it.

Re Scoring: How about the honor system? We use NCR's rules and post the team rosters here....then when the final results get posted after each event, they can then be tallied by the team Captains (declared at the outset when submitting a team roster). Why must we assume that someone will mess with the results? That doesn't seem to happen within a normal AutoX...so why should this be any different?

Anyway....there's obviously some level of interest in this. I saw throw it out there, set a dead line for team submission (here to the message board) and then see where we stand. Maybe there will be no teams...but maybe there will be a bunch? And if they're divided by manufacturere...so be it. There's a reason they play the game....because anything can happen. Past history is just that...past.

[stealthgtfour]

ill join any one im telling you, im a ringer i co-drove a csp miata in 06 and posted 3 win and one 2nd until bo moved and so did the car .let me know or just add me to your list i dont care

[lagunamiata]

How about this... I'll create a sub-board under the AX one for the AX team competition. All discussion can take place there.

We'll make an announcement at the first event of the formation of the teams. Deadline will be the date of the AX school in March. Teams must be formed by the end of the intermediate school on Sunday. List of teams must be sent to me by the end of that week (March 17) via e-mail. I'll post the teams on the sub-board. Points will be collected starting at the 2nd CCR event, the April one.

How about that??

[7thson]

I think the idea is great, just in the fact that it adds more interest in what is going on outside of your class. This is such a self-centered sport (not as in narcissistic), it would be nice to pull for others, take interest in other classes, and more folks might actually hang-out to the very end. It may also serve to bring some people out of their shells a little bit; not just sitting in their cars waiting for there run or work group.

Brad

[nitroc5]

saabstory said:

I think Mr. Belden and his fire breathing, tire shredding Vette had a similar idea last year. Just didn't get off the ground for some reason.

Yup, in fact I started (3) seperate threads about it... had some good responses but could not get anyone to commit. At the time I had (2) seprerate teams of (5) Corvettes that all agreed to do it, but I just could not drum up enough interest from everyone else.

Then there were also those comments really trying to make such a simple idea VERY complicated and of course I was even flammed a few times as well. I'm not interested in trying to "form" this competition again....HOWEVER I'm very interested in being part of a team. In fact I could probably still get (5) people committed by the first race.

Its a great idea and think it would make a fun day at the track even better and more interesting....and frankly I don't care whose team I would be on...on RAW times I usually finish in the top 10, however the PAX timing kills my car on small tight tracks.

[sleeper]

I like just keeping things simple. Let's follow the rules Rich posted earlier in the first thread. A team is a team, and whether it's based on manufacturer or a group of friends, who cares?

I will step up and volunteer to coordinate this at every event, meaning I'll be the person who collects the active roster forms from all the team captains. Since I'm going to help post event results on the website and keep track of the season points, it makes sense that I also do this. I will run on a team also, however, there won't be a conflict of interest since all the results and calculations are transparent, and can be verified by anyone at anytime.

What does everyone think?

lagunamiata said:

Here are the rules that the Cape Fear Region is using:

Cape Fear Region
Team Autocross Rules

Team Rosters

1. Teams must have a team name and a permanent roster
2. 6 drivers minimum per team
3. 12 drivers maximum per team
4. Drivers may be added any time during the season provided you do not exceed the 12 driver maximum
5. Drivers on a roster can not be substituted for during the season.

Captains

1. Team captains shall be responsible for team members meeting class requirements.
2. Captains must file a class check sheet on each driver prior to his participation.
3. Captains shall turn in an active roster form to timing and scoring at the end of the registration period and prior to the team meeting.
4. Captains shall be responsible for tabulating there final score at the end of each event using the active roster form.
5. Any grievance must be filed in writing with in 24 hours to the chapter coordinator
6. The chapter coordinator shall have the right to determine the outcome of any grievance.

Scoring

1. The season champion will be based on the points system.
2. Event scoring will be based the top PAX times for 5 different classes
3. Only one driver per class can score for a team.
4. If no team is represented by 5 classes then the next highest number of classes represented will determine the winner.
5. The team with the lowest total PAX times is the winner.

[sleeper]

fluid1 said:

scoring points based off how you finish in your class. NOT PAX index as the Tire class people would get SCREWED.

Unfortunately that's not going to work Tony. If scoring points were based on class finishes, then those teams made up of drivers who are the only ones competing in their class will have a huge advantage since they automatically get first, this doesn't gauge their "true" performance. It must be based on PAX to be fair to the majority of all participants. Yes, the Tire guys will get screwed, but there is no way around that.

[Sisko99]

That sounds like a plan to me, Steve. Thanks for stepping up and taking charge.

[fluid1]

sleeper said:

fluid1 said:

scoring points based off how you finish in your class. NOT PAX index as the Tire class people would get SCREWED.

Unfortunately that's not going to work Tony. If scoring points were based on class finishes, then those teams made up of drivers who are the only ones competing in their class will have a huge advantage since they automatically get first, this doesn't gauge their "true" performance. It must be based on PAX to be fair to the majority of all participants. Yes, the Tire guys will get screwed, but there is no way around that.

SO, you're telling me that the Tire class and the Tire class ONLY gets screwed. How nice is that??

I will NOT participate if this team system is dictated by PAX only. Someone explain to me why I would want to compete in a system that DIRECTLY SCREWS my car? At least Steve found a good solution at Lowe's last year for a runoff that was dictated by pax.....but this system is based solely on what position you finish overall pax. Well, guess what. The SCCA has decided not to class the 350Z into a Street Touring class. So, if I want to run street tires, the ONLY palce I can do so is Tire class. And on street tires, I am getting the SAME pax multiplier as anyone racing BS on R- compounds gets.

Until something different is in place, something fair, count me out.



And Steve Shin, make no mistake about it, if you were still racing in the tire class this year, you wouldn't take this so lightly.

[sleeper]

As i said, unfortunately there is no perfect system. Basing the scoring on how everyone finishes in their class gives far too much advantage to those teams that have drivers in a one driver class.

[fluid1]

sleeper said:

As i said, unfortunately there is no perfect system. Basing the scoring on how everyone finishes in their class gives far too much advantage to those teams that have drivers in a one driver class.

It seems obvious to me that an addendum be made to the rules, to PAX the Tire class with an additional multiplier.

[MattP]

fluid1 said:

SO, you're telling me that the Tire class and the Tire class ONLY gets screwed. How nice is that??

Any car that isn't prepared to the limit of the rules 'gets screwed', whether by class restrictions (tire class) or decision of the owner. You're in the same boat as the guy in SM with only a CF hood, or the guy in street prepared with a alternate carburetor or wheel size.

[fluid1]

mattp said:

fluid1 said:

SO, you're telling me that the Tire class and the Tire class ONLY gets screwed. How nice is that??

Any car that isn't prepared to the limit of the rules 'gets screwed', whether by class restrictions (tire class) or decision of the owner. You're in the same boat as the guy in SM with only a CF hood, or the guy in street prepared with a alternate carburetor or wheel size.

You are incorrect, sir. Re-read what I said about the 350Z. There is no Street Touring option for the car. The 350Z cannot race in STS, STX, STS2, STU, ect. The rules do not allow it. So, I race in tire class. It is not a matter of not having the car prepared to the limit. This is the drivers in the Tire class getting screwed because there is not a pax for the tire class. Take the Nissan Spec-V for example. If you had it 100% prepared to the limit of the rules in STX, but ran with R- compounds, you would go into DSP I believe, maybe DP or SM. There is a tire class for a reason. It encourages more drivers to come and race their daily driven vehicles......based on what class the car with the specific mods would fall into. If you want the participation of these drivers, no matter how seasoned, it would make sense to make them as competative as any other driver in any other car or class with the mods that driver currently has.

[MattP]

I am aware that there is not a ST class for that car. I should have said "Any car that isn't prepared to the limit of the rules of the classes that PAX is based upon 'gets screwed'". That Spec-V in your example wouldn't be anywhere near the legal limit of the allowances in DSP, DM or SM, and thus would also be considerably slower than the cars that PAX is based upon.

What is your proposed index to be applied to street tire class competitors? Please back this index up with empirical data.

In any case, I don't understand getting all out of shape about this in a voluntary team competition that is supposed to be fun. I don't think we would have seen Steve getting upset about this last year, he typically paxed decently despite running on street tires. I guess it's about what's more important to you, winning street tire class, or winning this additional competition.

By the way, if you seriously want a ST class that incorporates the 350Z (STX2? STU2?), you can write a proposal for a provisional class to the Solo Events Board ([e-mail]). I've written a few letters, it's very easy to do.

[fluid1]

mattp said:

What is your proposed index to be applied to street tire class competitors? Please back this index up with empirical data.

Sure thing brother. We did a similar thing last year (Steve and I ) when calculating what kind of modifier would be needed. We used an additional PAX index based completely on the past year's history of times in the CCR region, for class winners, and their pax indexes. It will take some time to do again, but have no doubt that I am on it right now.

[lagunamiata]

To the street tire class gang - at least you're running in a region that has a tire PAX. NCR doesn't run one. You get the SCCA classes, plus Novice and Ladies. That's it... No GS-T... no HS-T... no CSP-T...

[silversurfer]

Count me in for team Nissan.

Tony, trust me, I completely hear what you're trying to say about being screwed by the current PAX multiplier in tire class, but for the sake of trying this new competition and having fun with it, can you let the PAX issue go until such time that you can file a protest with the regional board?

[lagunamiata]

Alright boys and girls... you have a sub-board for the team competition.

Have at it!!

ccrscca.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=07team

[fluid1]

lagunamiata said:

To the street tire class gang - at least you're running in a region that has a tire PAX. NCR doesn't run one. You get the SCCA classes, plus Novice and Ladies. That's it... No GS-T... no HS-T... no CSP-T...

Once again.....if the 350Z was classed into a Street Touring class, I would be racing in it.

[fluid1]

This is the most fair thing I can think of:

Take the winner of the Tire class, in each event, and compare that time to the winner of the class that the Tire winner would fall into if that driver raced in the open class. Once the totals for each event have been reached, average them all together, and create a multiplier based on the difference between the winner from the Tire class, and the winner from the Open class that would be represented by the Tire winner. The difference in the averages can be equaled by a multiplier. That multiplier should be used as a second PAX on top of the Tire class' automatic PAX based on the open class that the specific car would fall into.

[fluid1]

silversurfer said:

Count me in for team Nissan.

Tony, trust me, I completely hear what you're trying to say about being screwed by the current PAX multiplier in tire class, but for the sake of trying this new competition and having fun with it, can you let the PAX issue go until such time that you can file a protest with the regional board?

This has nothing to do with me filing a protest to the reginal/national board. Of course I will file a grievance with them to get the 350Z classed into a Street Touring class, but that's independent of this situation. The Tire class needs an additional multiplier to fairly compete with all other classes in regards to PAX.