NCR's team autocross idea

[mattwrx]

I'm going to be driving a bone-stock car in STU this year... about as under-prepped as I can get! I see it as a wonderful challenge to me to learn how to drive better.

If I don't drag the Subie Team down, I'm in!

[fluid1]

mattwrx said:

I'm going to be driving a bone-stock car in STU this year... about as under-prepped as I can get! I see it as a wonderful challenge to me to learn how to drive better.

If I don't drag the Subie Team down, I'm in!

Why would you race in STU? Why not race in stock class if there's no mods?
If it is because of the fact that you will be running street tires, you should be thankful that your car is actually classed into a Street Touring class.

[Sisko99]

I still want to know how an STi can have a better pax multiplier than the 350Z.

[fluid1]

sisko99 said:

I still want to know how an STi can have a better pax multiplier than the 350Z.

Which class are you talking about?

[lagunamiata]

I really don't see what the problem is with the tire PAX. You're pulling the top position ACROSS 5 classes. If a STi wins STU, so be it. A Z can win the tire class in BS-T. Then both get points for getting first place.

Tire class gets it's own points...

[lagunamiata]

fluid1 said:

So, if I want to run street tires, the ONLY palce I can do so is Tire class. And on street tires, I am getting the SAME pax multiplier as anyone racing BS on R- compounds gets.

You're NOT competing against a Z in B-Stock running R-compound tires... You're competing against other B-Stock cars running street tires in BS-T....

[sleeper]

lagunamiata said:

I really don't see what the problem is with the tire PAX. You're pulling the top position ACROSS 5 classes. If a STi wins STU, so be it. A Z can win the tire class in BS-T. Then both get points for getting first place.

Tire class gets it's own points...

Rich, so you want the system to be based on class finishes, and not overall PAX?

I'm fine with that, however, we have to stipulate something for the one driver classes, or else any team that has a collection of them will automatically get 1st place finishes every event.

[7thson]

This same thing came up a while back in another autocross I belonged to. In order to "equalize" classes with fewer drivers, we came up with a system like this:

1 entry scores 8 points
2 entries: points = 9 and 7
3 entries: points = 9, 8, 7
4 entries: points = 10, 9, 7, 6
5 entries: points = 10, 9, 8, 7, 6
Etc.

The justification was that it was harder to win a larger class, so more points were awarded. This also increased peoples interest in filling their classes, and recruiting more entrants.

Not saying this is the perfect answer, but it has worked for that other club's purposes since it was adopted in 1993.

Brad

[mattwrx]

fluid1 said:

Why would you race in STU? Why not race in stock class if there's no mods?
If it is because of the fact that you will be running street tires, you should be thankful that your car is actually classed into a Street Touring class.

Well, that's one of the reasons. The other is after I learn my car better, I'll start with the modifications... probably exhaust first. I won't have to change classes later in the points race, and I only need to buy one set of magnets! ;D

That and there's already a healthy showing of STi's I can run with and rarely another STi in A-Stock.... and no race tires allowed. So in the short term it's actually cheaper for me to start out in STU.

[C4Shane]

stealthgtfour said:

ill join any one im telling you, im a ringer i co-drove a csp miata in 06 and posted 3 win and one 2nd until bo moved and so did the car .let me know or just add me to your list i dont care

Wud kind of beer do ya like... i'm thinking of a Guinness team!

[jbyrd]

saabstory said:

Wud kind of beer do ya like... i'm thinking of a Guinness team!

18+5=Guiness Team

[lagunamiata]

I've gotten some clarification, should get some more info soon... I'll make sense of it and post tomorrow.

[fluid1]

I'm confused now. :x

[sleeper]

7thson said:

This same thing came up a while back in another autocross I belonged to. In order to "equalize" classes with fewer drivers, we came up with a system like this:

1 entry scores 8 points
2 entries: points = 9 and 7
3 entries: points = 9, 8, 7
4 entries: points = 10, 9, 7, 6
5 entries: points = 10, 9, 8, 7, 6
Etc.

The justification was that it was harder to win a larger class, so more points were awarded. This also increased peoples interest in filling their classes, and recruiting more entrants.

Not saying this is the perfect answer, but it has worked for that other club's purposes since it was adopted in 1993.

Brad

This is not a bad idea at all.

To keep things simple, I would use the same values as our season points, however, drivers in one or two driver classes would get less points counted toward team points:

1 entry: 4 points for 1st
2 entries: 6 points for 1st, 4 points for 2nd
3 entries: 9 points for 1st, 6 points for 2nd, 4 points for 3rd

And the rest would be scored as normal.

[lagunamiata]

Clarification from NCR...

Scoring is based by taking the top 5 finishers PER TEAM across 5 classes, not the top 5 PAX times overall. Those times are added together and the lowest overall for all teams wins the event.

Now that does open up the chance for a "ringer" team to be put together... but since you only count one finisher per class, having a team of all Pro's wouldn't do you any good. Only one of them can earn points.

Does that clear it up?

[silversurfer]

lagunamiata said:

Clarification from NCR...

Scoring is based by taking the top 5 finishers PER TEAM across 5 classes, not the top 5 PAX times overall. Those times are added together and the lowest overall for all teams wins the event.

Now that does open up the chance for a "ringer" team to be put together... but since you only count one finisher per class, having a team of all Pro's wouldn't do you any good. Only one of them can earn points.

Does that clear it up?

Still, if we're taking raw time instead of pax time then that opens up the possibility of a ringer team. It's possible for one team to have ringer cars in multiple classes, thus if those cars rip off low raw times in their respective classes (and win their classes) then their average raw time will put other teams at a big disadvantage.

In other words I'm not too keen on this idea.

[sleeper]

silversurfer said:

lagunamiata said:

Clarification from NCR...

Scoring is based by taking the top 5 finishers PER TEAM across 5 classes, not the top 5 PAX times overall. Those times are added together and the lowest overall for all teams wins the event.

Now that does open up the chance for a "ringer" team to be put together... but since you only count one finisher per class, having a team of all Pro's wouldn't do you any good. Only one of them can earn points.

Does that clear it up?

Still, if we're taking raw time instead of pax time then that opens up the possibility of a ringer team. It's possible for one team to have ringer cars in multiple classes, thus if those cars rip off low raw times in their respective classes (and win their classes) then their average raw time will put other teams at a big disadvantage.

In other words I'm not too keen on this idea.

No, we're still using PAX time. What Rich posted is exactly what we talked about earlier. Nothing changes.

The top 5 PAX times across 5 different classes are counted. It's as simple as that.

[silversurfer]

sleeper said:

7thson said:

This same thing came up a while back in another autocross I belonged to. In order to "equalize" classes with fewer drivers, we came up with a system like this:

1 entry scores 8 points
2 entries: points = 9 and 7
3 entries: points = 9, 8, 7
4 entries: points = 10, 9, 7, 6
5 entries: points = 10, 9, 8, 7, 6
Etc.

The justification was that it was harder to win a larger class, so more points were awarded. This also increased peoples interest in filling their classes, and recruiting more entrants.

Not saying this is the perfect answer, but it has worked for that other club's purposes since it was adopted in 1993.

Brad

This is not a bad idea at all.

To keep things simple, I would use the same values as our season points, however, drivers in one or two driver classes would get less points counted toward team points:

1 entry: 4 points for 1st
2 entries: 6 points for 1st, 4 points for 2nd
3 entries: 9 points for 1st, 6 points for 2nd, 4 points for 3rd

And the rest would be scored as normal.

This is a good method of scoring the team competition. It's fair, equitible and easy to do. Not to mention it should keep Tony happy as it doesn't involve pax times.

All we have to do is agree on a universal method of allotting points and we're good to go.

[silversurfer]

sleeper said:

silversurfer said:

Still, if we're taking raw time instead of pax time then that opens up the possibility of a ringer team. It's possible for one team to have ringer cars in multiple classes, thus if those cars rip off low raw times in their respective classes (and win their classes) then their average raw time will put other teams at a big disadvantage.

In other words I'm not too keen on this idea.

No, we're still using PAX time. What Rich posted is exactly what we talked about earlier. Nothing changes.

The top 5 PAX times across 5 different classes are counted. It's as simple as that.

It's not that I'm against going by pax times, but you know who has a gripe with that.

[fluid1]

lagunamiata said:

Clarification from NCR...

Scoring is based by taking the top 5 finishers PER TEAM across 5 classes, not the top 5 PAX times overall. Those times are added together and the lowest overall for all teams wins the event.

Now that does open up the chance for a "ringer" team to be put together... but since you only count one finisher per class, having a team of all Pro's wouldn't do you any good. Only one of them can earn points.

Does that clear it up?

Needs more clarification.

So, if I had a team with 5 drivers, and each of those drivers was driving in a class of 1. Each of them takes first place. What then?

So, you take the top 5 people that place the highest in their respective classes, and then use their RAW time to total a score up? So, if we had a team of drivers that raced in EP, DP, SM, SS, and FP, then that team would have a huge advantage no matter what they place in those classes as those classes, as an average, have the fastest times.

I'm not seeing how this is fair either.

Again, the only thing that I can think of that will be 100% fair across the board is taking PAX times, and giving the tire class an additional PAX indicator to even the playing field. Unless you can clarify on the rules some more.

[fluid1]

sleeper said:

No, we're still using PAX time. What Rich posted is exactly what we talked about earlier. Nothing changes.

The top 5 PAX times across 5 different classes are counted. It's as simple as that.

Um, based on Rich's post, you are 100% incorrect. He clearly says that it is NOT based on PAX.

Someone please clarify the EXACT rules.

[fluid1]

7thson said:

This same thing came up a while back in another autocross I belonged to. In order to "equalize" classes with fewer drivers, we came up with a system like this:

1 entry scores 8 points
2 entries: points = 9 and 7
3 entries: points = 9, 8, 7
4 entries: points = 10, 9, 7, 6
5 entries: points = 10, 9, 8, 7, 6
Etc.

The justification was that it was harder to win a larger class, so more points were awarded. This also increased peoples interest in filling their classes, and recruiting more entrants.

Not saying this is the perfect answer, but it has worked for that other club's purposes since it was adopted in 1993.

Brad

The only problem with this is if a team is comprised solely of one class of car.

Other than that, this looks decent...

[lagunamiata]

fluid1 said:

Um, based on Rich's post, you are 100% incorrect. He clearly says that it is NOT based on PAX.

Someone please clarify the EXACT rules.

I don't know where you get that... I've never said we are not using PAX times.

WE ARE USING PAX TIMES. PERIOD.

[lagunamiata]

fluid1 said:

Needs more clarification.

So, if I had a team with 5 drivers, and each of those drivers was driving in a class of 1. Each of them takes first place. What then?

So, you take the top 5 people that place the highest in their respective classes, and then use their RAW time to total a score up? So, if we had a team of drivers that raced in EP, DP, SM, SS, and FP, then that team would have a huge advantage no matter what they place in those classes as those classes, as an average, have the fastest times.

I'm not seeing how this is fair either.

Again, the only thing that I can think of that will be 100% fair across the board is taking PAX times, and giving the tire class an additional PAX indicator to even the playing field. Unless you can clarify on the rules some more.

You missed the point... we are taking the PAX times for each class NOT the raw times...

We can always say that if a class has only one or two participants that you can't count that class, you have to "beat" at least two participants.

[fluid1]

lagunamiata said:

fluid1 said:

Needs more clarification.

So, if I had a team with 5 drivers, and each of those drivers was driving in a class of 1. Each of them takes first place. What then?

So, you take the top 5 people that place the highest in their respective classes, and then use their RAW time to total a score up? So, if we had a team of drivers that raced in EP, DP, SM, SS, and FP, then that team would have a huge advantage no matter what they place in those classes as those classes, as an average, have the fastest times.

I'm not seeing how this is fair either.

Again, the only thing that I can think of that will be 100% fair across the board is taking PAX times, and giving the tire class an additional PAX indicator to even the playing field. Unless you can clarify on the rules some more.

You missed the point... we are taking the PAX times for each class NOT the raw times...

We can always say that if a class has only one or two participants that you can't count that class, you have to "beat" at least two participants.

So, nothing has changed. I'm still getting the crap end of the stick. Super.

[fluid1]

lagunamiata said:

I don't know where you get that... I've never said we are not using PAX times.

WE ARE USING PAX TIMES. PERIOD.

I see no need to yell, especially when it was not my post that needed clarification.
Here's a quote:
"Scoring is based by taking the top 5 finishers PER TEAM across 5 classes, not the top 5 PAX times overall." so......that's where I got that.

Glad that after all was said and done, nothing was actually taken care of to create a true equal playing field. Pretty weak if you ask me.

[lagunamiata]

If you don't like the idea, don't play... pretty simple. Nobody is forcing anyone to take part.

As for the idea being weak, it came from another region, I just offered it up as something that could be fun to try. Very quickly it go holes shot in it to try and make things more "equal" for some people.

Now, go here - ccrscca.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=07team&action=display&thread=1170703952 and read the last post using a real example from last season...

[fluid1]

lagunamiata said:

If you don't like the idea, don't play... pretty simple. Nobody is forcing anyone to take part.

As for the idea being weak, it came from another region, I just offered it up as something that could be fun to try. Very quickly it go holes shot in it to try and make things more "equal" for some people.

Now, go here - ccrscca.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=07team&action=display&thread=1170703952 and read the last post using a real example from last season...

For the 10th time, IT IS NOT ABOUT ME LIKING THE IDEA

This is plain and simple, SCREWING the tire class. No other way around it Rich.
How would you feel if you were the one getting screwed? You sure wouldn't like it if the Solo Director just blew you off and told you that your claims don't hold water. It's BS, 100%.

[lagunamiata]

fluid1 said:

This is plain and simple, SCREWING the tire class. No other way around it Rich.
How would you feel if you were the one getting screwed? You sure wouldn't like it if the Solo Director just blew you off and told you that your claims don't hold water. It's BS, 100%.

Explain to me how you are getting screwed by competing against the others in the tire class? Your time is not being compared to a fully preped BS or BSP car running in open. Your time is begin compared to all other cars running in the Tire class.

[sleeper]

I am only trying to clarify here...

Let's say Tony's PAX time is one of the five used toward Team Nissan points. His car is Tire BS.

Another driver in open BS is also one of the five PAX times used toward Team Mazda.

Both drivers use the same PAX multiplier yet the Mazda guy gets to use R-compounds, so he contributes a better PAX time. What Tony wants is a unique PAX multiplier for the Tire Class to reflect the fact that he is running on street tires.

The Tire class has always been an anomaly in this way.

There's no way around the fact that there is no PERFECT scoring system. We need to figure out a compromise here folks.