NCR's team autocross idea

[fluid1]

lagunamiata said:

Explain to me how you are getting screwed by competing against the others in the tire class? Your time is not being compared to a fully preped BS or BSP car running in open. Your time is begin compared to all other cars running in the Tire class.

You have to be freaking kidding me!!!!!

Once I win the tire class, my PAX time is used to contribute to the team, right???
If I'm correct, then I'm OBVIOUSLY getting screwed, as I've stated many times.
If PAX is used, tire class is getting shafted. Plain and simple. If you cannot see this, then you choose not to.

Again. Say Mike Bright raced in BS and won. And I raced in Tire class and won. His PAX time beats mine every time, because BS and TBS have the same pax. Which is decidedly unfair.

You answer this, how am I NOT getting screwed? lol!




Edit- well, look at that. My first TOP

[lagunamiata]

You know what, I offered this up as something fun, much like Rick tried to do the last few seasons. It's gotten twisted with people trying to re-write the rules and make it much more complicated than intended.

I'm done trying to make the rules work for everyone... if people still want to do this, go for it.
Once you finish arguing about how to score things so a BS-T car can be competitive against a BS car that's not in it's class let me know.

Maybe Shane, James and I will start Team Beer and just have fun with it...

Gang this stuff is SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!

I'm out of here... figure it out for yourselves.

[sleeper]

Here's what I'm proposing as a COMPROMISE

We do NOT use PAX times. We award points based on how each driver in 5 unique classes finishes in their respective class.

I would use the same values as our season points, however, drivers in one or two driver classes would get less points counted toward team points:

1 entry: 4 points for 1st
2 entries: 6 points for 1st, 4 points for 2nd
3 entries: 9 points for 1st, 6 points for 2nd, 4 points for 3rd

And the rest would be scored as normal.

This will prevent a team from getting an automatic advantage using drivers from one driver classes. At the same time, it allows Tire drivers to participate on an even level.

[fluid1]

lagunamiata said:

You know what, I offered this up as something fun, much like Rick tried to do the last few seasons. It's gotten twisted with people trying to re-write the rules and make it much more complicated than intended.

I'm done trying to make the rules work for everyone... if people still want to do this, go for it.
Once you finish arguing about how to score things so a BS-T car can be competitive against a BS car that's not in it's class let me know.

Maybe Shane, James and I will start Team Beer and just have fun with it...

Gang this stuff is SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!

I'm out of here... figure it out for yourselves.

You STILL don't understand my point of view, nor do you care. Awesome.

[lagunamiata]

I understand your point, but PAX isn't going to be changed. You have to live with it...

[fluid1]

lagunamiata said:

I understand your point, but PAX isn't going to be changed. You have to live with it...

"get screwed and like it"
Thanks but no thanks.

[silversurfer]

sleeper said:

Here's what I'm proposing as a COMPROMISE

We do NOT use PAX times. We award points based on how each driver in 5 unique classes finishes in their respective class.

I would use the same values as our season points, however, drivers in one or two driver classes would get less points counted toward team points:

1 entry: 4 points for 1st
2 entries: 6 points for 1st, 4 points for 2nd
3 entries: 9 points for 1st, 6 points for 2nd, 4 points for 3rd

And the rest would be scored as normal.

This will prevent a team from getting an automatic advantage using drivers from one driver classes. At the same time, it allows Tire drivers to participate on an even level.

I agree, I think this is a good compromise.

[fluid1]

You can agree as much as you want, but the 'powers that be' have already declared that they don't give a crap. I would bet $ that nothing is changed before this weekend, the first 'team' event.

[sleeper]

You assume too much Tony.

The scoring format has NOT been finalized. It's why we are debating this.

Also, this weekend will NOT count toward team competition. The idea will be announced at the driver's meeting and the plan is to have the Points #2 event as the first event that incorporates the teams.

[7thson]

sleeper said:

Here's what I'm proposing as a COMPROMISE

We do NOT use PAX times. We award points based on how each driver in 5 unique classes finishes in their respective class.

I would use the same values as our season points, however, drivers in one or two driver classes would get less points counted toward team points:

1 entry: 4 points for 1st
2 entries: 6 points for 1st, 4 points for 2nd
3 entries: 9 points for 1st, 6 points for 2nd, 4 points for 3rd

And the rest would be scored as normal.

This will prevent a team from getting an automatic advantage using drivers from one driver classes. At the same time, it allows Tire drivers to participate on an even level.

The reason the other club stayed away from this style, and went with the "Base 8" was that the system above counts the winner in a single car class the same as the loser in any other class. the "Base 8" keeps the middle of the class the same. If a driver finishes second in a three-car class, it is likely better than finishing 11th in a 12-car class. It's just as good to finish in the middle of three, as in the middle of 11. That make sense? That's the reason we did it.
Brad

[sleeper]

7thson said:

sleeper said:

Here's what I'm proposing as a COMPROMISE

We do NOT use PAX times. We award points based on how each driver in 5 unique classes finishes in their respective class.

I would use the same values as our season points, however, drivers in one or two driver classes would get less points counted toward team points:

1 entry: 4 points for 1st
2 entries: 6 points for 1st, 4 points for 2nd
3 entries: 9 points for 1st, 6 points for 2nd, 4 points for 3rd

And the rest would be scored as normal.

This will prevent a team from getting an automatic advantage using drivers from one driver classes. At the same time, it allows Tire drivers to participate on an even level.

The reason the other club stayed away from this style, and went with the "Base 8" was that the system above counts the winner in a single car class the same as the loser in any other class. the "Base 8" keeps the middle of the class the same. If a driver finishes second in a three-car class, it is likely better than finishing 11th in a 12-car class. It's just as good to finish in the middle of three, as in the middle of 11. That make sense? That's the reason we did it.
Brad

That makes sense, thanks for posting that.

[sleeper]

Despite the "healthy" debate we've got going here (lol), I think there is still strong interest to hold a CCR Team Competition this year.

Here's what I propose. I will volunteer to manage the series. This weekend at the Test and Tune and Autox I will walk around and talk to as many drivers to get feedback. Things like, do you have a team in mind, or which points structure do you prefer.

As Dave our fearless leader recommended, the Team Competition will not officially start until Points #2. That will give everyone 2 months to form teams, and we can officially vote on this forum on which points format to use as well as other rules.

I think this idea is still a very good one, and if everyone agrees, I will continue to help make it reality.

[nitroc5]

lagunamiata said:

You know what, I offered this up as something fun, much like Rick tried to do the last few seasons. It's gotten twisted with people trying to re-write the rules and make it much more complicated than intended.

Gang this stuff is SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!

This is exactly why I gave up on this idea last year when I kept bringing it up in my "Manufacturer Competition Threads"

I honestly cannot believe that some of you are really trying to take such a simple idea that is VOLUNTARY to participate in and suppossed to be alot of fun....and are making it so damn complicated!!

....and I really cannot believe that any of you would attack Rich, who is one of the best guys I know of in the CCR and to use words like getting "SCREWED" on a fun and again VOLUNTARY team?

I'll argue this with anyone as I feel without a doubt I get "Screwed" by the PAX system in SCCA by far more than anyone else...I mean do you really think that 800hp and sway bars the size of my leg are really advantagous while racing bettween tight cones in a small parking lot?? LOL LOL!!

But ya know what I could really absolutely care less about that in a friendly competition. Rich, I'm availble as a teammate if you want one...and although I probably have many overall top 10's and probably a few top 5 in RAW times...I'm sure my PAX will kill us..but then again I really don't give a rats AZZ...lets just go have some fun!

[C4Shane]

Kewl... eggzacktly ..... Well, there is a Fiesta available in Team Beer which is on the opposite end of the spectrum from the SuperVette.

Guys..Have fun!

[prancingdawg]

MMMMM, now which team do I wanna join? RatsAZZ or team Beer? Which has better benefits? And what are the joining requirements of each team? IS team Beer gonna have keggers and beermaids? Will ratsAZZ have scantilly clad wimmenses in halter tops and short shorts? Umbrella girls? Kewl tshirts?

[fluid1]

nitroc5 said:

lagunamiata said:

You know what, I offered this up as something fun, much like Rick tried to do the last few seasons. It's gotten twisted with people trying to re-write the rules and make it much more complicated than intended.

Gang this stuff is SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!

This is exactly why I gave up on this idea last year when I kept bringing it up in my "Manufacturer Competition Threads"

I honestly cannot believe that some of you are really trying to take such a simple idea that is VOLUNTARY to participate in and suppossed to be alot of fun....and are making it so damn complicated!!

....and I really cannot believe that any of you would attack Rich, who is one of the best guys I know of in the CCR and to use words like getting "SCREWED" on a fun and again VOLUNTARY team?

I'll argue this with anyone as I feel without a doubt I get "Screwed" by the PAX system in SCCA by far more than anyone else...I mean do you really think that 800hp and sway bars the size of my leg are really advantagous while racing bettween tight cones in a small parking lot?? LOL LOL!!

But ya know what I could really absolutely care less about that in a friendly competition. Rich, I'm availble as a teammate if you want one...and although I probably have many overall top 10's and probably a few top 5 in RAW times...I'm sure my PAX will kill us..but then again I really don't give a rats AZZ...lets just go have some fun!

If you really have a problem with anything I said, you are more than welcome to come speak to me in person about it.

I was being attacked for bringing to light the fact that the system as it was is unfair to some. I explained my point many times, and continued to get flak for it. So, after I realized that no one seemed to care but me, I took myself out of the equation.

You bought mods for your car that aren't tailored for your class. That's no one's fault but your own. You're not getting 'screwed' because you choose to mod the way you do. I choose to mod my car within the class rules of the specific class I want to be in. Apples to oranges, sir.

[nitroc5]

saabstory said:

Kewl... eggzacktly ..... Well, there is a Fiesta available in Team Beer which is on the opposite end of the spectrum from the SuperVette.

Guys..Have fun!

Shane I'm all for it...especially if we are serving beer as an official team refreshment! ;D

[nitroc5]

fluid1 said:

nitroc5 said:

This is exactly why I gave up on this idea last year when I kept bringing it up in my "Manufacturer Competition Threads"

I honestly cannot believe that some of you are really trying to take such a simple idea that is VOLUNTARY to participate in and suppossed to be alot of fun....and are making it so damn complicated!!

....and I really cannot believe that any of you would attack Rich, who is one of the best guys I know of in the CCR and to use words like getting "SCREWED" on a fun and again VOLUNTARY team?

I'll argue this with anyone as I feel without a doubt I get "Screwed" by the PAX system in SCCA by far more than anyone else...I mean do you really think that 800hp and sway bars the size of my leg are really advantagous while racing bettween tight cones in a small parking lot?? LOL LOL!!

But ya know what I could really absolutely care less about that in a friendly competition. Rich, I'm availble as a teammate if you want one...and although I probably have many overall top 10's and probably a few top 5 in RAW times...I'm sure my PAX will kill us..but then again I really don't give a rats AZZ...lets just go have some fun!

If you really have a problem with anything I said, you are more than welcome to come speak to me in person about it.

I was being attacked for bringing to light the fact that the system as it was is unfair to some. I explained my point many times, and continued to get flak for it. So, after I realized that no one seemed to care but me, I took myself out of the equation.

You bought mods for your car that aren't tailored for your class. That's no one's fault but your own. You're not getting 'screwed' because you choose to mod the way you do. I choose to mod my car within the class rules of the specific class I want to be in. Apples to oranges, sir.

LOL..."come speak to you about it"...are you kidding me...LOL.....You have to be one of the most paranoid people that I've heard of. Come on now don't pick on me...I'm a little shy, skiddish and very non-confrontational so I would rather not have to confront anyone

Look go back and read your threads you are making mountians out of molehills...this is for fun...stop taking yourself so seriously. If you read your posts you are basically asking people who have voluntarily set-up a fun contest to alter it in a way so just YOU can be more competative. Its not a conspiracy against you...its just the way it is. I'm sure you are a fine person, just relax.

Here are a few tips:
1) Buy a different car
or
2) Get into a different class
or
3) Mod your car differently
or
4) Learn to drive better with what you have
or
5) Get the National SCCA to alter PAX rules.

[lagunamiata]

Just wait till you hear from Steve on Saturday or Sunday...

[fluid1]

nitroc5 said:

Here are a few tips:
1) Buy a different car
or
2) Get into a different class
or
3) Mod your car differently
or
4) Learn to drive better with what you have
or
5) Get the National SCCA to alter PAX rules.

I don't really want to buy a different car.... I like this one.
I'd love to get into a different class...
I may just race in BS open next year.
I will do my best every second I'm on the course and off it to drive better with what I have.
I will be sending my gripes and ideas to Kansas.

I'm not overworked over this as it appears. I just believe that anyone who was in a similar situation would feel the same way. I also felt slighted when multiple people expressed such negativity towards what I think is a legit claim. It's okay, I'll still be able to compete as usual in the CCR points season, that's most important to me anyway.

[lagunamiata]

I was going to write up a nice long response about how PAX / RTP is the National standard, used by others, if someone doesn't like it to take it up with the people that created the index... and about how Tire isn't a National class, that's why there isn't a National index for it... And that others may feel the same way, but accept it because it's the standard... Plus add that CSP was the only place I could participate when I started and was stuck there because of an intake and no other mods...

But then I realized that it wasn't worth the trouble. PAX / RTP is what we've got to use. Unless someone offers something else, it's what is going to be used. Attacking me on the facts that I posted won't do any good. Getting attacked by others won't do any good. All of us have to deal with the fact that life isn't fair to everyone, be it in autocross or at work. We all have to deal with it and get over it.

So, play nice on here, EVERYONE STOP THE ATTACKS or you'll start getting warnings and the moderators will have to start doing something!

[fluid1]

lagunamiata said:

I was going to write up a nice long response about how PAX / RTP is the National standard, used by others, if someone doesn't like it to take it up with the people that created the index... and about how Tire isn't a National class, that's why there isn't a National index for it... And that others may feel the same way, but accept it because it's the standard... Plus add that CSP was the only place I could participate when I started and was stuck there because of an intake and no other mods...

But then I realized that it wasn't worth the trouble. PAX / RTP is what we've got to use. Unless someone offers something else, it's what is going to be used. Attacking me on the facts that I posted won't do any good. Getting attacked by others won't do any good. All of us have to deal with the fact that life isn't fair to everyone, be it in autocross or at work. We all have to deal with it and get over it.

So, play nice on here, EVERYONE STOP THE ATTACKS or you'll start getting warnings and the moderators will have to start doing something!

You seem to either forget or ignore the facts regarding my sitaution. IF the 350Z was classed into a Street Touring class, then I would compete in it, as it is a 'Nationally Recognized' class. This is not the case, and I have written a letter to the SCCA headquarters. I have never attacked you on the facts, I have only brought to light the fact that in a PAX team system, our region's Tire class gets the shaft. It was you who attacked me and shrugged off my claims as they are not vaild to you. I tried in vain to expalin the situation, and no one either cared or even acknowledged that Tire gets screwed...... everyone just told me how stupid my ideas and opinions are, usually without anything close to fully understanding the point of view.
I'm sorry that your intake put you in a different class. I mod my car specifically to compete in CCR SCCA. If there was a class I could race street tires in that is nationally a class, I would be in it.

As I have stated many times, I don't mind that I'm getting the shaft, I just won't compete in a team system until I am in a class that is represented on a fair level. No worries!! We can let this dead dog lie now.

[jbyrd]

What we really need is an STX2 class for Tony's 350Z, my 2.8 Z3, Per's Z06, and just about anything else that has a "Z" in its name.

Tony, there's been disscussion about that very issue on sccaforum in the Street Touring Forum: STX2: What does your crystal ball say?

It's been pretty dead lately, but it is still a hot topic which is going to recieve more attention as the year wears on. It can't happen until 2008 pretty much anyway.

Until then, those of us with 2 seat cars that don't fit into STS2 are pretty-much out of luck.

[jbyrd]

I just started a new thread at sccaforums. Will see if that opens up more discussion.

Of course, AndyH will probably explain 50 reasons why I shouldn't have asked the question first!!!!!! ;D

[lagunamiata]

Lets move the STX2 discussion upstairs...

[fluid1]

Thanks for the info. I'm going to sign up on that site.

jbyrd said:

I just started a new thread at sccaforums. Will see if that opens up more discussion.

Of course, AndyH will probably explain 50 reasons why I shouldn't have asked the question first!!!!!! ;D

[prancingdawg]

Nah, Tony is in a class by himself

*hiding under sofa*