|
|
Post by dusterbd13 on Dec 27, 2012 22:34:51 GMT -5
for me personally, i would like to see more events throughout all 12 months. also more on the social aspect as well that does NOT involve bars. (just not comfortable in them)
what you did well? you made me feel welcome. honestly. when i autocrossed with you guys years ago, i didnt feel welcome. this time, i really did, by everyone. the instructor was also very nice, as well as the course walk.
what can you do to improve? couple of things: water jugs for the course workers on hot days. trash cans. open the courses a little more where possible for those of us running larger vehicles (i run a 70 duster)
what will i be doing to help? renewing ,y scca membership for the first time since the late 90's, and running every event i can afford and ckeep a car under me for. also offering paddock assistance for broken cars, and will volunteer to lead a prayer for those that want it before the first car off.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrbill on Dec 27, 2012 22:54:55 GMT -5
I don't get to make too many events (due to conflicting dates with working at ALMS events) but really enjoyed the couple events I was able to make at Z-Max last year. It seems like the club has a very strong core group of workers and things seemed to flow pretty smooth last year (registration, course layout, working, event time, etc.). Wish I could help more but hard to get that involved when I can only make 3-4 events a year. Thanks to Mike & AJ for all the hard work involved.
I like the idea of combining Stock/SP/P/etc. classes for single events to provide more competition. There are a lot of what I call 'tweeners (people who are too fast/dominate their single class, but not fast enough to compete at the top of Pro) w/ myself included and this would give you more people to race. After moving up from DSP to Pro class this year I was expecting to finish mid/bottom of the pack (and I'm perfectly fine with that...gives me something to work at), but I could see where some people may become bored/discouraged from this and having a combined "Street Prepared" class for example could give them better competition before having to step up to the "Pro" level.
|
|
|
|
Post by Frodo on Dec 28, 2012 4:15:49 GMT -5
What's a trophy? Never heard of such a thing. Must not be that important because I came out and worked and competed at as many events as I could. And had some of the best times I've ever had in a car or with a group of people. And never saw one of these 'trophies' you people speak of. Explain le trophy to me please.
|
|
|
|
Post by yellow CR on Dec 28, 2012 17:20:35 GMT -5
what you did well? you made me feel welcome. honestly. when i autocrossed with you guys years ago, i didnt feel welcome. this time, i really did, by everyone. the instructor was also very nice, as well as the course walk. what can you do to improve? couple of things: water jugs for the course workers on hot days. trash cans. open the courses a little more where possible for those of us running larger vehicles (i run a 70 duster) Glad you felt welcome at our events last year. As for the other part. We always had coolers with bottled water at each corner station last year. Also our 2 best site zMAX and Metrolina do have blue trash cans all over the place. And you don't have to worry about open courses, I don't design pinch fests. If anything I may make stuff too fast at times. |
|
|
|
Post by cr89x on Dec 28, 2012 17:53:34 GMT -5
Thank you Bill.
Duster?! Name please? I missed this somehow :/
Broken car assistance, there is plenty. I wind up looking at a few cars throughout an event. Find me anytime. Hopefully I'm not in a car.
|
|
|
|
Post by drum3 on Dec 29, 2012 8:48:31 GMT -5
And you don't have to worry about open courses, I don't design pinch fests. If anything I may make stuff too fast at times. yes you do ! but everything improves with practice ,,,and one or 2 tight areas make a course challenging and give a change of pace too many make the course a pain . Finding the balance makes the course even for all cars . |
|
|
|
Post by turtle8 on Jan 4, 2013 15:54:54 GMT -5
I certainly hate one-car classes. I competed in one for a few seasons in EP. Then when competition came to EP, I found how really under-prepped my car was. I hadn't the budget to remedy that so I just lived with it.
The indexed classes sound interesting, but I don't think it will change the competition all that much. SCCA classes are arranged in such a manner, that one car model dominates each class. If a driver doesn't have the "it" car, they have little chance. We all know what car is necessary to win in each respective class. If you don't have that car, you pretty much don't have a chance. I prefer the bumping order myself.
|
|
|
|
Post by steven6282 on Jan 4, 2013 19:33:23 GMT -5
Yes PAX is based on cars that are well prepared. But if you have 2 cars competing in the same open class, "Car A" is almost stock having an insignificant mod, bumping it up to a street prepared / mod class, which happens all the time. And "Car B" is almost 100% prepped. We don't have a PAX issue, since the 2 cars are in the same open class, but is it fair? Without a PAX system in place, we already have an issue with the competitive balance. So it really doesn't matter. You are not going to have good competition in open classes unless all the cars have a similar prep level. Car A will never be competitive, not with the 9 class system and not with the present open class system. But we can get "Car B" some competition with "Car C" - a near 100% prepped car in a different class. This is the problem I worry about with large class combinations. I face this all last season and I have to admit it was a huge drag. But I enjoy autocrossing enough that I stuck around for it. And this season I'm going to be in a different car that will hopefully remove this downside for me. My Camaro is an incredibly fun car to drive, but due to engine modifications I made before I even started autocrossing it was classed in SM. I ran it in TCP for most of the year simply because CP had slightly better PAX. But still it doesn't matter how good I get at driving, I'd never be competitive in the Camaro because it isn't prepped but maybe 50% of a true SM or CP car. One of the biggest things it lacks is slicks (hence the tire class, but the pax I was stuck with was based on cars running slicks so that put me at an immediate disadvantage still in tire class). The fact that I consistently stayed ~2 seconds in pax behind my friends that I started the year with through the entire year, tells me that it most likely was the car and not my driving, otherwise I would've fallen farther behind as the season progressed and my friends got better. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a trophy hunter, I could care less if I get a trophy, but I do enjoy being able to compete. I'm just worried if the classes were combined like proposed, there would be other people in similar situations that would get discouraged and quit participating all together when they are consistently near last in a group of 30 as opposed to only 3 or 4. As it is now, a driver that wants more competition can choose to go to another class that has more drivers (like pro or a higher mod class than their own, or even change their car to meet another class rules). But if you change the format to combine the classes, you remove that choice from the driver and instead force it onto people. Or if you wanted you could always display results both ways, and do awards on both to satisfy both sides of it. I don't think AXWare can really handle it easily, but a bit of programming and parsing the results could. The live timing parser I wrote for SCR could do it with a few small additions. |
|
|
|
Post by cr89x on Jan 5, 2013 9:57:48 GMT -5
Keogh, I don't quite agree with "it" cars. STC yes it must be a civic. STS is mostly crx or miata but either is capable of winning on a given day and sometimes it depends on the course. To continue the ST example trend, STX can be won in a Subaru, BMW,RX8, or EF Civic. There it comes down to driver and prep. I do understand what you were thinking tho. Some people have gone outside the box though and shown that some "odd" chassis can do well.
Steven, the purpose of the combine PAX classes is to take similar prep levels and put them together. I know that's not quite the way to say it because everyone has a different budget. If I got ahold of Sledgehammer from ATL region, 69 CP Mustang and amazing, and put star specs on it, I doubt I could win tire class against Brian Guinn with his HS PAX. Just a quick example I could think of. Two great cars and well prepped. Driver is everything there.
I will add that sometimes prep doesn't mean much. Driver is number one! Example is STS in CCR this year. My Miata is FAR from a good set up. It is far too soft, stock power, no where near the norm. Walter's CRX though is very well prepped. He has the upped power, the ideal suspension, years developed in that car before he got it. The two of us had some close competition. Then one day a switch just hit and my driving went to another level it seems. Or the old mans reflexes are going away from all that slow track day stuff he has been doing ;p
I'm anxious to see what this year has in store for our region. I'm amped to get going, yet I'm glad there is over a month until the season starts. I have quite a few cars in a lot of pieces right now.
There will hopefully be a partial schedule posted next week.
|
|
|
|
Post by drum3 on Jan 5, 2013 19:32:54 GMT -5
In Autocross , Driver is 90% , Prep is 7% , course design is 2% , the other 1% is luck .
|
|
|
|
Post by stealthgtfour on Jan 5, 2013 20:32:28 GMT -5
i like a challenge. more competition = bigger challenge. its the only way to improve yourself.
its a motivation thing. man that guy has been beating me every event!! then you dig deep.
you push the limit a bit farther and then the limit agian until ...... holy crap ive beaten him!!!!
that is the best feeling. 1-2 person classes dont give you this. once you feel it its all you want
to feel. i dont care about a trophy if i beat no one; but when it represents a triumphant
moment where you've beat that rival competitor then it has meaning behind it. it matters.
you can look at it and say "man, i really had to work for that one" to your buddies or kids.
this is the inspiration behind all sport. this is where the passion comes from.
mike and aj have it and want to share it with all. i say we let em
|
|
|
|
Post by integra55 on Jan 5, 2013 21:39:46 GMT -5
I've stated this earlier .... I really couldn't care less how we do it at the actual events ... hell run everyone in one single class ... I don't care. ... as long as the results are separated out to the standard SCCA classes for end of season placement .... it's been several yrs since I've taken a monthly event trophy ... a yr or two later I'll never remember who I beat at that individual event ... shoot even 2 or 3 events later I probably won't remember ... or care ... there's no way I'll drive any faster in a 20 car class than I will in a 2 car class... when I check the results after getting home I look at my class and at the overall ... I bet I don't check where I finished PAX more than 2 or 3 times a yr ... this is just me and my opinion... YMMV
|
|
|
|
Post by ball80 on Jan 5, 2013 22:09:26 GMT -5
It's funny this is the topic. I talked about doing away with trophies and going with a sticker or something and everyone was talking about how important the trophy was. How when new people got them it made them want to come back. How they are so great. Now everyone is like who cares bout trophies. It's amazing how the minds Change in one month
|
|
|
|
Post by z3elda on Jan 5, 2013 23:22:17 GMT -5
It's funny this is the topic. I talked about doing away with trophies and going with a sticker or something and everyone was talking about how important the trophy was. How when new people got them it made them want to come back. How they are so great. Now everyone is like who cares bout trophies. It's amazing how the minds Change in one month Don't read too much into this Mr. Ball. There are 2 parts to this. The competition part and the Award/reward part. I don't think the point of running pax classes is to stop giving trophies.. It's to foster competition and improve overall driver ability. Triad is discussing a similar system, since they often have classes with only 1 or 2 cars running (or none). The big difference is that Triad kicks our arse at every NCAC, and those of us who care about such things would like to do something about it! I still believe that trophies are important, but maybe not for everybody. People new to the sport like 'em. I like 'em- they make great sponsor gifts if nothing else. If you don't want your trophy, don't take it. I also agree with Walter - keep track of the class results and award a season champ. While we can do our own thing somewhat, we are still a part of SCCA. |
|
|
|
Post by integra55 on Jan 6, 2013 7:46:41 GMT -5
It's funny this is the topic. I talked about doing away with trophies and going with a sticker or something and everyone was talking about how important the trophy was. How when new people got them it made them want to come back. How they are so great. Now everyone is like who cares bout trophies. It's amazing how the minds Change in one month don't think anyone's changed their mind .. it's just you're hearing form folk that are talking about receiving trophies for themselves, those that've been a-x'ing for several yrs (at least in my case ) trophies are very important to new comers to the sport ( or at least I think they are ) if gives them something to shoot for .... that said, I've got boxes of them .. if they are something "special" and I did well enough to receive one that day I'd be happy to take it ... otherwise no thanks .. the only trophy I'm really interested in is the year end ... but I think you'll run in to a lot of resistance from the newer a-x'ers if you try to do away with them |
|
|
|
Post by drum3 on Jan 6, 2013 8:40:24 GMT -5
I have probably 100 trophies from my first 4-5 years , only 15-20 are displayed , they were either the coolest looking or from major events . After those first years I just didnt really care about the local trophies , unless they were T-shirts , glasses or hats ,,,something I could use . Anything else if I picked it up it usually just went in a box or I gave to my nephew or some kid that liked it . When I was learning the sport they meant alot , but after a while the competition for me switched from in class to Overall Pax and Raw . Year End trophies still were nice . National Trophies were pretty cool too .
So You have both opinions , Important for someone just entering the sport ,, not so much after a few years ...... More so if its something you can use in everyday life ...
|
|
|
|
Post by integra55 on Jan 6, 2013 8:51:39 GMT -5
I still get my T shirts with another region , and if I ever get good enough to take home the glass ware that Triad gives out (gave out ? do you still ? ) I be more than happy with them .....
as for the little trophies/plaques/stickers, etc... not really interested ... got a box full
|
|
|
|
Post by ball80 on Jan 6, 2013 9:03:17 GMT -5
So by combining classes. Newcomers will be far less likely to get event trophies. And thus make them less likely to come back?
|
|
|
|
Post by cr89x on Jan 6, 2013 9:44:26 GMT -5
Marske you pegged it! It goes along wo what Eric said. We want to keep the fun, but we also want to help our club's competition level. Our overall goal is not so much National stuff but NCAC. We are trying to come up with ways to hit our goal this season of better competition and beating Triad at NCAC.
Anthony, funny isn't it how we circle back around. Now that I reflect, trophies meant a bit to me my first two years, or so. Towards the end of my second year it was more of how I was doing overall, and is even more so after this season. This is why I feel that after 2012 I have outgrown open classes, regionally, and will be in PRO in 2013.
I have countless trophies in the office. Most are in a big stack somewhere. I keep my biggest achievement trophies on display though. Some are in the office on the desks and the biggest, or most current, I keep in the living and dinning rooms. Even today, I still like a trophy, plaque, glass over a sticker.
Novice class will remain, so new comers still have the same chance of receiving a trophy as usual. We haven't discussed year end championship yet.
Mike and I will discuss it, but I am on the side of pax classing events, as we are proposing, and leave individual class championships. It may be a little more work on my part but I think our team can manage it.
|
|
|
|
Post by integra55 on Jan 6, 2013 10:16:55 GMT -5
So by combining classes. Newcomers will be far less likely to get event trophies. And thus make them less likely to come back? I happen to think you're right ... it's not just the novice class .. the first few yrs ( as AJ and Anthony both have mentioned ) that the event trophies are the most important and the only way to do that would be to keep the individual classes ... AJ ... wanting to beat Triad is a commendable goal .. and figuring a way to improve our driving to reach the level needed is, again, commendable ... but it seems we already have that class/competition in place .. it's call Pro .... if someone wants more competition ( especially against other classes ) the the PAX of Pro would do everything you're trying to do by combining classes .. those that don't want to or don't care to shouldn't be forced to ... my 2ยข on the subject and the last I'll say .. you all will do what you think is best ... that's why you're in the positions you are, and I'm sure you and Mike will do just that ... whatever is best for the club |
|
|
|
Post by ball80 on Jan 6, 2013 14:31:10 GMT -5
I think having an additional pax class will solve everything. We have novice. We have pro. Lets make a amateur class.
|
|
|
|
Post by integra55 on Jan 6, 2013 15:05:29 GMT -5
So by combining classes. Newcomers will be far less likely to get event trophies. And thus make them less likely to come back? I think having an additional pax class will solve everything. We have novice. We have pro. Lets make a amateur class.  |
|
|
|
Post by drum3 on Jan 6, 2013 18:55:47 GMT -5
He is saying Novice Class , then Amateur Pax , then Pro Pax.......You could even say the year end winner in Amateur has to move to Pro  You could just use that and bump any class with less than 3 competitors (or less than 2 ) into Amateur Pax plus allow anyone to run it that doesnt qualify for Pro . |
|
|
|
Post by integra55 on Jan 6, 2013 20:48:49 GMT -5
anyone that wants to run Pro can ... there is no qualifying ... and just because ... I don't plan on running pro ( I won't say never , but that's my intention ) plus I read his first as sarcastically saying that a pax class for everyone would not be good for noob retention .... then his second as advocating another pax class instead of regular classes ![]() |
|
|
|
Post by yellow CR on Jan 6, 2013 21:08:27 GMT -5
I think an Intermediate PAX Class is a pretty good compromise. Because their are several people that would like to compete in a 20+ person class, but just are not on the level of the pro class for whatever reason, driver ability or the cars prep level.
I would have thought veteran drivers like yourself Walter, would like the idea of having more competition. I personally feel if you were in an ST battle with John Wolf - the STU winner, Amy T - our STX winner, Greg Henderson - the STR winner and others you would have some added excitement to your autocross experience.
And as for newcomers getting trophies... Who are the people that venture into a form of skilled competition and expect to go out and win? Do you go to 3 karate classes and get a black belt? Because, I hear more than anything else from new people is, " I hope to get through the course. " or "I hope I don't embarrass myself" not "I want a trophy". I don't feel weather someone gets a trophy or not has anything to do with them coming back. Having a fun, competitive environment, while making people feel welcomed will keep people coming back, which I think we do very well.
|
|
|
|
Post by integra55 on Jan 6, 2013 21:29:01 GMT -5
actually mike it wouldn't do anything for me ... it wouldn't/couldn't make me drive any harder/faster than I do already ... I don't drive "just fast enough to win" I drive each lap to the very best of my ability now ...
as for it make for more excitement, I don't see how ... since I'd never know how I stood against them ( re the amt of time the live timing TV is actually working )
|
|
|
|
Post by jprice130 on Jan 6, 2013 22:13:39 GMT -5
actually mike it wouldn't do anything for me ... it wouldn't/couldn't make me drive any harder/faster than I do already ... I don't drive "just fast enough to win" I drive each lap to the very best of my ability now ... Walter, I think it's awesome that you are able to get every ounce out of your driving no matter what. I think most people probably believe that they've tried their absolute best at every event and never hold back. With that said, I think a lot of those same people don't really know what they're capable of until they are presented with a challenge. In my case, I can remember times when I came off course feeling pretty good about a run only to have a competitor knock another half-second off my time. When that has happened, it really got me thinking harder about my lines and such. I feel like I always try to make the next run better than the previous run, but when I have competition that's consistently setting the bar high for me, I do find that I think a little harder about my driving and may even ask questions of other drivers that I probably wouldn't have asked if I wasn't pushed. Again, I know you have a lot of experience and you know exactly what it takes to squeeze every 100th of a second out of your car, but I honestly think that's rare for most people. |
|
|
|
Post by jprice130 on Jan 6, 2013 22:24:57 GMT -5
I think an Intermediate PAX Class is a pretty good compromise. Because their are several people that would like to compete in a 20+ person class, but just are not on the level of the pro class for whatever reason, driver ability or the cars prep level. I saw a couple other folks post that they would be cool with running the combined classes for individual events but that they would still want to see season points for the base classes. Could we not just do something like this: 1) Novice, Tire, and Pro run exactly the same as always and will have their own season points 2) For open classes at individual events, run combined classes by prep level and hand out awards according to those combined classes 3) Post results by SCCA classes AND the combined classes 4) Maintain season points for SCCA classes AND maintain points for the combined classes and provide season awards for both This seems like it would be a happy medium for everyone. Plus, if we get those live results working consistently well (via the web and/or TV), then no one will have to worry about bugging their competitors about their times and doing all the PAX math. |
|
|
|
Post by drum3 on Jan 7, 2013 6:18:21 GMT -5
actually mike it wouldn't do anything for me ... it wouldn't/couldn't make me drive any harder/faster than I do already ... I don't drive "just fast enough to win" I drive each lap to the very best of my ability now ... as for it make for more excitement, I don't see how ... since I'd never know how I stood against them ( re the amt of time the live timing TV is actually working ) I feel like I drive as hard as I can at most events ,,,,then I put Kraig Klippel in the car , watch his line , he beats me by 1.5 seconds ...Fun runs I find 1.5 seconds ....what do you know I didnt drive as hard as I could , I JUST THOUGHT I DID , ,, , until a faster driver pushed me .... My goal now is to drive just slightly above my ability for a couple of runs each event. |
|
|
|
Post by integra55 on Jan 7, 2013 6:31:41 GMT -5
actually mike it wouldn't do anything for me ... it wouldn't/couldn't make me drive any harder/faster than I do already ... I don't drive "just fast enough to win" I drive each lap to the very best of my ability now ... Walter, I think it's awesome that you are able to get every ounce out of your driving no matter what. I think most people probably believe that they've tried their absolute best at every event and never hold back. With that said, I think a lot of those same people don't really know what they're capable of until they are presented with a challenge. In my case, I can remember times when I came off course feeling pretty good about a run only to have a competitor knock another half-second off my time. When that has happened, it really got me thinking harder about my lines and such. I feel like I always try to make the next run better than the previous run, but when I have competition that's consistently setting the bar high for me, I do find that I think a little harder about my driving and may even ask questions of other drivers that I probably wouldn't have asked if I wasn't pushed. Again, I know you have a lot of experience and you know exactly what it takes to squeeze every 100th of a second out of your car, but I honestly think that's rare for most people. I don't remember saying that I got every ounce of time out of every run... what I said was I drive as hard as I can every run ... there's a difference ... and yes seeing a competitor better my time IS incentive to go even faster ... doesn't mean I didn't give it my all on the previous run ... just that I tend to get better the more runs I get ( witness mine and AJ's fights through out last yr ) most of our fastest times came on our last couple of runs ... but without any consistent way of knowing where I stand compared to others in my "class" ? my times are going to be somewhat meaningless in comparison. my raw times aren't going to be anywhere close to a STR/STU car ... so I might well think that there are only tenths not seconds left out there maybe your comment about me being able to squeeze every 100 of a sec out of each run was sarcasm that went right over my head ... but if you actually meant it .... then think on this .. if I were able to do that I'd be running and winning at the nationals... I'm much better now than I was 10 yrs ago but no one does what you suggested .. remember all I claimed was that I drive to the very best of my ability every run regardless of what others are doing , and have a 20 car class won't make me drive any harder/better |
|
