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Post by yellow CR on Dec 19, 2012 19:20:09 GMT -5
What do you want to see with the upcoming 2013 season?
What did we do well in 2012 and what do we need to improve on in 2013?
What are you going to do to help in 2013?
As for myself I would like to see better competition. With all the SCCA classes and many having 1 or 2 people competing, at the end of last season we only had 3 or 4 season championships undecided at the last event, which to me is bad competition. So if you want better competition, I think changes should be made locally. If all similar classes were combined into a larger PAX class, people will have someone to shoot for, and thus make better drivers.
Potential 2013 Classes:
ST Class - STR, STX, STU, STC, STS & STF
Stock Class - SS, AS-HS
Street Prepared - SSP, ASP-FSP
Prepared - XP-GP
MOD - Kart and all Mod classes
Street Mod - SMF, SM, SSM
RT Stock Class - Stock classes on street tires
RT Prepared Class - All non-stock classes on street tires
Pro Class as normal
What say You?
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Post by philip1 on Dec 19, 2012 19:23:40 GMT -5
What do you want to see with the upcoming 2013 season? My backside behind the wheel of the same car all season
What did we do well in 2012 and what do we need to improve on in 2013? Lots of things mostly orginization of the events, but also delegation of duties to able help
What are you going to do to help in 2013? Ill be helping in tech at every event.
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Post by integra55 on Dec 19, 2012 20:32:14 GMT -5
What do you want to see with the upcoming 2013 season? What did we do well in 2012 and what do we need to improve on in 2013? What are you going to do to help in 2013? As for myself I would like to see better competition. With all the SCCA classes and many having 1 or 2 people competing, at the end of last season we only had 3 or 4 season championships undecided at the last event, which to me is bad competition. So if you want better competition, I think changes should be made locally. If all similar classes were combined into a larger PAX class, people will have someone to shoot for, and thus make better drivers. Potential 2013 Classes: ST Class - STR, STX, STU, STC, STS & STF Stock Class - SS, AS-HS Street Prepared - SSP, ASP-FSP Prepared - XP-GP MOD - Kart and all Mod classes Street Mod - SMF, SM, SSM RT Stock Class - Stock classes on street tires RT Prepared Class - All non-stock classes on street tires Pro Class as normal What say You? would this be in conjunction with the regular classes ? in other words a separate competition ... separate winner/trophy along with the regular class winners ? |
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Dec 19, 2012 20:43:53 GMT -5
2013 season: Much like 2012, but with a little less reliance on ZMax. Maybe trade one Metrolina for one at Knights? Even better, a new site?
Biggest room for improvement: Kershaw. Two black eyes for the club in three years. If we go back, let's make it a non-points event.
What am I going to do to help? MUCH less than in 1993-1997!
The PAX proposal: Interesting idea. I would get my tail kicked because we intentionally prepped our car so far below the national rules, but it would still be fun to have more cars in the class. If that proposal doesn't fly, consider using the SCCA bumping order (Appendix B) for trophies at each event.
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Post by alschoon on Dec 19, 2012 22:43:00 GMT -5
What do you want to see with the upcoming 2013 season? What did we do well in 2012 and what do we need to improve on in 2013? What are you going to do to help in 2013? As for myself I would like to see better competition. With all the SCCA classes and many having 1 or 2 people competing, at the end of last season we only had 3 or 4 season championships undecided at the last event, which to me is bad competition. So if you want better competition, I think changes should be made locally. If all similar classes were combined into a larger PAX class, people will have someone to shoot for, and thus make better drivers. Potential 2013 Classes: ST Class - STR, STX, STU, STC, STS & STF Stock Class - SS, AS-HS Street Prepared - SSP, ASP-FSP Prepared - XP-GP MOD - Kart and all Mod classes Street Mod - SMF, SM, SSM RT Stock Class - Stock classes on street tires RT Prepared Class - All non-stock classes on street tires Pro Class as normal What say You? No affect on me, but I like it. My ROR has been doing it for a few years. Competitors will like it. Trophy hunters, not so much. |
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Post by alschoon on Dec 19, 2012 22:44:02 GMT -5
What do you want to see with the upcoming 2013 season? What did we do well in 2012 and what do we need to improve on in 2013? What are you going to do to help in 2013? As for myself I would like to see better competition. With all the SCCA classes and many having 1 or 2 people competing, at the end of last season we only had 3 or 4 season championships undecided at the last event, which to me is bad competition. So if you want better competition, I think changes should be made locally. If all similar classes were combined into a larger PAX class, people will have someone to shoot for, and thus make better drivers. Potential 2013 Classes: ST Class - STR, STX, STU, STC, STS & STF Stock Class - SS, AS-HS Street Prepared - SSP, ASP-FSP Prepared - XP-GP MOD - Kart and all Mod classes Street Mod - SMF, SM, SSM RT Stock Class - Stock classes on street tires RT Prepared Class - All non-stock classes on street tires Pro Class as normal What say You? No affect on me, but I like it. My ROR has been doing it for a few years. Competitors will like it. Trophy hunters, not so much. |
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Post by srduck on Dec 20, 2012 8:44:26 GMT -5
Bumping order like Dean mentioned might be better than an all out PAX battle. It worked for the night events with very few people, no trophies, etc... but with the 160-180 we pull in at ZMax events it might be a bitch much. Stock classes and ST* classes are usually well subscribed, it's just the SP, M, and P classes that are often a bit lacking. I think bumping order will be a better experiment this year than PAX. Bumping order would keep things separate for championships, too. More championship trophies handed out at the end of the year means (hopefully) more attendance at the banquet.... and getting that social aspect of the club is something a few of us have been harping on all year (Casino). Dean: I did a Porsche Club AutoX at Knights last month.... it's gotten bad  There are huge chunks of pavement missing, grit and gravel EVERYWHERE.... and with the Knights moving to an uptown stadium, it's not likely any of that will be fixed. Not a big fan of the curbs there either. |
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markk
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by markk on Dec 20, 2012 9:34:08 GMT -5
I like the PAX idea, bumping as second choice. Bumping could lead to 2 car classes, Pax would create larger classes. Maybe non DOT tire classes PAXXed together? Thanks, Mark
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Post by integra55 on Dec 20, 2012 9:42:44 GMT -5
Bumping order would keep things separate for championships, too. More championship trophies handed out at the end of the year means (hopefully) more attendance at the banquet.... speaking of the banquet ... the date has been posted, but nothing more ... as in where ( Asheville while not huge is a bit vague as far as a venue) .... this bump/question is mainly for all the others that plan on attending ... the date selected is the same as that for ETR which I'll be attending ( since I have to make a choice ... you know the first place thing vs a second place finish ;D ) |
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Post by em99sport on Dec 20, 2012 10:30:44 GMT -5
I like the combining classes concept a lot. As someone in a class that usually has no more than three entries per event, if that, any additional competition is welcome.
If the combining or bump class idea is used for 2013, I wouldn't feel the need to move to pro class.
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Post by jprice130 on Dec 20, 2012 11:41:42 GMT -5
Oh man, I LOVE the idea of combining the classes by Stock, Street Touring, Street Prepared, and etc. PAX can be frustrating sometimes, but overall it's going to give you a larger pool of competition and make you push yourself.
As for the trophy hunters, yeah there won't be as many 1st place trophies up for grabs, but the overall amount of trophies available should be about the same. I'd still be more proud to get a 5th place trophy in a 30 person class as opposed to getting 1st out of 3 competitors.
I really don't see any downsides to this whatsoever. Let's do it!
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Post by subydude on Dec 20, 2012 13:16:00 GMT -5
Combining classes is fine in my eyes. How would it work with Pro class though? Just leave Pro alone and let the other classes combine? Either way, I'll be bumming rides for the first half most likely with the SM car hopefully making an appearance by mid-spring.
I actually really like the ZMax events. Big, open courses with more national style speeds. Good paddock and access to food. I don't like smaller lots so if CCR wanted to run more events at ZMax I'd be happy. I'd even go so far as to say I'd skip the CCR events besides ZMax and CMP simply because I like higher top speeds.
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Post by czrider on Dec 20, 2012 13:21:38 GMT -5
Since I will be needing to test and tune my new TT engine, a couple of Z Max SOLOs would be nice to break it in.
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Post by integra55 on Dec 20, 2012 14:09:06 GMT -5
as long as the season end championships aren't affected by the monthly finish order ( in other words, we would still adhere to the SCCA classes ) I wouldn't care one way or the other ...
I'll run just as hard in class with 1 other competitor as I would in a class of 20 ....
no trophy hunting here since I seldom collect the trophies ( where ever I finish) at the individual events ... ( didn't take a single one this past yr ... and only 1 ( I think ) in '11 .....
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Post by Mike Burke on Dec 20, 2012 15:32:14 GMT -5
Hello All,
The following is my Christmas wish list in response to Mike's questions:
--Wanted in 2013: The prompt release of at least a tentative schedule that includes a variety of sites.
--What was done well in 2012 and what could be improved in 2013: Actions to create and implement the "Core Worker" group, increased emphasis on the social aspect of the Solo sport, and the efficient use of available sites were among a number of things done well in 2012! For 2013, perhaps more efforts could be expended to start the events on time, and most importantly in my mind, creation and publication of an "Event Cancellation Plan" that incorporates a provision for awarding season class points to those classes that have completed their runs in case an event gets stopped/canceled.
--My help in 2013: Given the two hour plus drive from Asheville to participate in CCR's events, my help is continued to be offered as a somewhat glib PA announcer, a leader of Novice Walks, and, or a Grid worker.
--Class consolidation: Based on my four decades of Solo participation in many Regions and independent auto-x clubs, CCR does a exemplary job in awarding event trophies to all class winners no matter how many competitors in the class. Such action, though perhaps costly to the Region, is a very effective tool for keeping novice and limited experience entrants involved. (Personally, event trophies are not a goal.). As mentioned in an earlier posting, SCCA's "Bumping Order" Appendix B could facilitate class consolidation on a by event level, though I favor continuing CCR's past practice of awarding trophies to all class winners. CCR's somewhat recent adoption of the "Pro" (though not for money) class enables interested entrants an opportunity to compete against people in other classes. My recommendation is that no matter what consolidation efforts are considered, the integrity of the individual season Class Championships should be maintained to protect the efforts made by members who build and develop their cars to compete in a specific class on a regional/local level.
Thank you for requesting input!
Mike Burke
Asheville
Member #51644
828 258-2442
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Post by 05astock on Dec 20, 2012 23:48:21 GMT -5
I dont think you can run at zmax "too much". Maybe people are intimidated at the speed but if thats the case Id rather slow it down at zmax than run at knights or Metro anyday. I just dont see how theres any complaints about Zmax. Its probably a top 5site in the southeast/eastcoast.
My concern with classing, do you plan to recognize the RT* pax in pro? I hope to run rtr pro but if Im competing using CS on street tires then I dont stand a chance.
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Post by drum3 on Dec 21, 2012 6:17:44 GMT -5
I would think it would be easy to maintain the year end individual class championships and still run the Pax format . As someone who has seen what a pita the bump order is to put together for larger events , I think that is not a good choice .
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Post by SteveCouture on Dec 21, 2012 11:43:20 GMT -5
I will state my position as being against index classes. Hate them. Hate them. Hate them. Random math multipliers do NOT create close competition - they muddy the waters and hide true performance. INDEXES are based on ESTIMATES and AVERAGES - they aren't facts.
I can understand (and tolerate) their use at small events and in special cases - i.e. Night Series, PRO, and Novice - where the entrant chooses to subject themselves to this type of "competition". But for large events they don't make sense and in my opinion go against the head-to-head competitive nature that the SCCA class structure was designed to support.
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Post by russ33 on Dec 21, 2012 14:14:18 GMT -5
Totally against indexed classes. My firstauto-x I ran a Mustang against a Mini-Cooper. In spite of that, I still came back for more. Also, when I started, there was Stock, Prepared, and Modified. Now there are so many classes and permutations of classes, I don't know where I land. It has become like kids baseball, everyone who shows up is entitled to a trophy. I say reduce the number of classes down to something that is managable.
Russ
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Post by srduck on Dec 21, 2012 14:22:24 GMT -5
Totally against indexed classes. My firstauto-x I ran a Mustang against a Mini-Cooper. In spite of that, I still came back for more. Also, when I started, there was Stock, Prepared, and Modified. Now there are so many classes and permutations of classes, I don't know where I land. It has become like kids baseball, everyone who shows up is entitled to a trophy. I say reduce the number of classes down to something that is managable. Russ Indexing would reduce it that way. You'd have Stock, Prepared, and Modified. The only difference is you wouldn't be bringing a knife to a gun fight if you come out in a stock Mazda 3 and have to run raw time against S2000s, Corvettes, etc. Sounds like you should be totally FOR index classes |
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Post by SE3P on Dec 21, 2012 14:40:45 GMT -5
If we do implement the indexed classes we should make it a must to have an announcer. Without the time slips nobody will know how they stand in their class, as well as the spectators.
Then there is that whole live timing out, i'm used to it for the National stuff but I havn't gone to the website for the CCR live timing yet, either or, announcer or accurate live timing. A must!
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Post by srduck on Dec 21, 2012 14:48:22 GMT -5
If we do implement the indexed classes we should make it a must to have an announcer. Without the time slips nobody will know how they stand in their class, as well as the spectators. Then there is that whole live timing out, i'm used to it for the National stuff but I havn't gone to the website for the CCR live timing yet, either or, announcer or accurate live timing. A must! Live timing has been accurate ever since I got it working.  It would be great to have an announcer, too... but we need a working PA system first. The one we have is old and not cooperating at the moment. |
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Post by cr89x on Dec 21, 2012 17:37:19 GMT -5
Believe me all inputs will be taken in. I'm seeing some good input. This is why Mike and I have been looking to the membership for their thoughts overall and on specific subjects. Thank you everyone as always for helping us out.
For classing, the thought is to simply combine all like classes into one large pax class. This would make the classes; Stock, Street Touring, Street Prepared, Modified, Street Modified, Prepared, Modified, Tire, Novice, and Pro. Some details will be worked out though.
The thought for season championship is to just use the combine pax classes as a class.
I am really interested to hear what we did well, even grades(A-F) as a whole and individual areas in 2012. Why? I want to know what we need to work on for 2013.
I went into this season with one mission. STRUCTURE! CCR Solo program now has that. We have some work to do still though, but we are by far better now. The last half of the year was full of great, near flawless events. Hopefully that carries over. We will only get stronger together.
Now that we have our base built. I want to work on socializing and competition in 2013. We have a good group of regional participants. There is a large number that wants to improve more. I encourage everyone to build up the same fire and have FUN. Ask anyone that went to NCAC this year. We made the long drive all together there and back, spent a lot of time together, got our butts waxed and were disappointed about it, yet we had a LOT OF FUN. We have monthly socials and meets after each event. Come join the party!
Thank you everyone for participating, lending a helping hand, giving advice, and making this such a fantastic season! I look forward to next year.
Let the good times roll! Happy Holidays everyone! Be safe.
AJ
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Post by yellow CR on Dec 21, 2012 18:34:28 GMT -5
I would like to change the classing around because this is suppose to be a diving competition, not the special Olympics where everyone is a winner. We have 37 open classes and last year the number of drivers who qualified for the season championship was only 36.
So out of 37 open classes:
17 classes had 0 qualify for the season championship
9 classes had only 1 qualify
8 classes had 2 qualify
Only 3 classes had 3 or more people qualify.
I want to do this because I want to see each event trophy and season ending trophy mean something. Because as it is now, all trophies that are won in open classes have no worth, and were not really earned, with the exception of the 3 classes out of 37 that had driver participation. I started in tire class, and loved the competition, having 10+ drivers to run against all the time is great. Now being in PRO and competing against 20-50 drivers is really awesome. We had 48 drivers in Pro at Black Lake, yeah that's 48 drivers, and when I came in 7th, I was damn proud if my showing. Because I would rather come in 7th out of 48, than 1st out of 3.
And the PAX system is very accurate, to within a tenth in my opinion.
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Post by yellow CR on Dec 21, 2012 18:38:30 GMT -5
My concern with classing, do you plan to recognize the RT* pax in pro? I hope to run rtr pro but if Im competing using CS on street tires then I dont stand a chance. I plan on RT Classes being able to run in Pro in 2013. |
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Dec 21, 2012 20:02:15 GMT -5
I don't like indexed classes either. But the core of Mike's proposal is combination of similar classes. I can't speak to all groups, but the indices in the Prep group are not very far apart and won't make much difference in an all-Prep class. Mark and Ryan will kick our butts whether it's an indexed class or heads-up And that's they way it SHOULD be. I suspect it is the same in most of the other proposed super-classes. And I totally agree with Joe: A 5th in a competitive class is worth more than a 1st in a class by myself. We have had very close competition in XP this year, so it's going to be hard to improve on that. Still, I'd love to take a shot at that all-Prep superclass!
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Dec 21, 2012 20:07:15 GMT -5
I should be more clear: Even though I generally don't like using an index to compare wildly different classes, I think Mike's proposal for an indexed combination of similar classes would be great.
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Post by russ33 on Dec 21, 2012 20:12:37 GMT -5
The biggest thing I would like to see work on is posting times. I want to know where I stand as it relates to other cars in my class. Not knowing how far ahead or behind I am can be frustrating.
Russ
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Post by srduck on Dec 21, 2012 20:25:03 GMT -5
The biggest thing I would like to see work on is posting times. I want to know where I stand as it relates to other cars in my class. Not knowing how far ahead or behind I am can be frustrating. Russ We've had live timing on the internet for the last 2 events of the year and will hopefully have it in the forseeable future. Once we can get the TV out of that metal case, we can use it too. Right now, in the case, all the foam padding presses buttons and turns the bloody thing off. |
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Post by toilets on Dec 21, 2012 20:57:06 GMT -5
I would like to change the classing around because this is suppose to be a diving competition, not the special Olympics where everyone is a winner. We have 37 open classes and last year the number of drivers who qualified for the season championship was only 36. So out of 37 open classes: 17 classes had 0 qualify for the season championship 9 classes had only 1 qualify 8 classes had 2 qualify Only 3 classes had 3 or more people qualify. I want to do this because I want to see each event trophy and season ending trophy mean something. Because as it is now, all trophies that are won in open classes have no worth, and were not really earned, with the exception of the 3 classes out of 37 that had driver participation. I started in tire class, and loved the competition, having 10+ drivers to run against all the time is great. Now being in PRO and competing against 20-50 drivers is really awesome. We had 48 drivers in Pro at Black Lake, yeah that's 48 drivers, and when I came in 7th, I was damn proud if my showing. Because I would rather come in 7th out of 48, than 1st out of 3. And the PAX system is very accurate, to within a tenth in my opinion. I don't think it's fair to say it wasn't earned... It's not my fault that more people don't have a SS class car nor is it my fault that my main competition in that class failed to attend the minimum required events to qualify. What other class could I have done? Not tire, (i ran Hoosiers) nor pro (my first full season). And novice I felt wasnt fair for others as I already did a season prior. So picking this class was my only choice really. Having said this, I am all for competition and personally id like to see a pax class for all stock classes, then prepared, etc. etc. |
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There are huge chunks of pavement missing, grit and gravel EVERYWHERE.... and with the Knights moving to an uptown stadium, it's not likely any of that will be fixed. Not a big fan of the curbs there either.
It would be great to have an announcer, too... but we need a working PA system first. The one we have is old and not cooperating at the moment.