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Post by drum3 on Jan 7, 2013 9:24:45 GMT -5
And what I was saying is we never drive to the best of our ability, there is always more! And with NO competition there is no incentive and if there are others in your open class, you have them to judge by in either format
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Post by jprice130 on Jan 7, 2013 9:58:19 GMT -5
This is why I really don't care for internet forums. It's too easy to mis-interpret tone and sarcasm. Walter, I definitely wasn't trying to be sarcastic at all. Yes, my comment about driving to 100th of second was a bit of an exaggeration, but it wasn't meant to be sarcastic or put you down.
I had interpreted your previous statements to mean that your raw times wouldn't be any different whether you ran in a class by yourself or whether you ran in a class with 20. For someone with your experience, I really wouldn't doubt that, even if that is what you meant. I was just trying to point out that most people do drive hard, but I think they're more likely to question themselves, their approaches, and their car prep when presented with a direct competitor that's posting times ahead of theirs on a consistent basis. The chances of that happening are much greater in a larger class. I think this is all Mike and AJ are going for.
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Post by ball80 on Jan 7, 2013 11:09:26 GMT -5
This is why I really don't care for internet forums. It's too easy to mis-interpret tone and sarcasm. Walter, I definitely wasn't trying to be sarcastic at all. Yes, my comment about driving to 100th of second was a bit of an exaggeration, but it wasn't meant to be sarcastic or put you down. I had interpreted your previous statements to mean that your raw times wouldn't be any different whether you ran in a class by yourself or whether you ran in a class with 20. For someone with your experience, I really wouldn't doubt that, even if that is what you meant. I was just trying to point out that most people do drive hard, but I think they're more likely to question themselves, their approaches, and their car prep when presented with a direct competitor that's posting times ahead of theirs on a consistent basis. The chances of that happening are much greater in a larger class. I think this is all Mike and AJ are going for. Walter. I think he's just taunting you. He can't handle a veteran like you. Maybe you can tutor him.  |
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Post by srduck on Jan 7, 2013 11:33:52 GMT -5
100% not sarcastic at all.... it's always possible to be faster. Every single one of us has done that "I gave it all I had" speech to ourselves, but it's a giant lie. Hell... even after he took down top PAX at NCAC, I'd bet Casino will tell you there was still time he left out there. Class competition is great. Being in a bigger PAX class is even better, but if you REALLY want to have something pushing you to be even better, SHARE A CAR! Trying to beat Feinberg at the Evo Shootout this year made me push myself, but the biggest times where I feel like I've really "stepped it up" were when I was co-driving with someone and they were beating me. Last December I went up to a triad event in Danville and Hodges has been having problems with his Neon, so he asked if he and Suzanne could co-drive my car since he was wanting a Miata. Absolutely! Having someone I KNOW is fast in the same car as me gave me a target to chase, and all day we swapped fastest times (as the tires heated up probably). Putting Casino in my MINI for fun-runs at a ZMax event and watching him beat my best time by half a second pushed me. The events I co-drove with Licursi pushed me. The events I co-drove with Wendel, McGrain, Walsh, etc always pushed me to be faster. Like Joe kinda alluded to, it makes you question yourself. When you can't make those mental excuses about the car's handling or whatever... when you can flat out see "that guy took the same car and went faster than me... it MUST be possible"... you kinda break through an invisible wall and make it happen. Excuses and complaining don't work anymore... only fast works  Now, as for the TV, I think we discovered at the last event why it hasn't been working properly. The foam inside that metal case is pressing buttons it ought not press, and as a result it changes the TV channel or turns it off. We're going to try our best to get that remedied at the next event. Now that I've gotten live internet timing working, I can spend more time working with other solutions to make it easier for those without the intarwebs on their phones. |
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Post by integra55 on Jan 7, 2013 12:26:45 GMT -5
100% not sarcastic at all.... it's always possible to be faster. Every single one of us has done that "I gave it all I had" speech to ourselves, but it's a giant lie. Hell... even after he took down top PAX at NCAC, I'd bet Casino will tell you there was still time he left out there. Class competition is great. Being in a bigger PAX class is even better, but if you REALLY want to have something pushing you to be even better, SHARE A CAR! Trying to beat Feinberg at the Evo Shootout this year made me push myself, but the biggest times where I feel like I've really "stepped it up" were when I was co-driving with someone and they were beating me. Last December I went up to a triad event in Danville and Hodges has been having problems with his Neon, so he asked if he and Suzanne could co-drive my car since he was wanting a Miata. Absolutely! Having someone I KNOW is fast in the same car as me gave me a target to chase, and all day we swapped fastest times (as the tires heated up probably). Putting Casino in my MINI for fun-runs at a ZMax event and watching him beat my best time by half a second pushed me. The events I co-drove with Licursi pushed me. The events I co-drove with Wendel, McGrain, Walsh, etc always pushed me to be faster. Like Joe kinda alluded to, it makes you question yourself. When you can't make those mental excuses about the car's handling or whatever... when you can flat out see "that guy took the same car and went faster than me... it MUST be possible"... you kinda break through an invisible wall and make it happen. Excuses and complaining don't work anymore... only fast works Now, as for the TV, I think we discovered at the last event why it hasn't been working properly. The foam inside that metal case is pressing buttons it ought not press, and as a result it changes the TV channel or turns it off. We're going to try our best to get that remedied at the next event. Now that I've gotten live internet timing working, I can spend more time working with other solutions to make it easier for those without the intarwebs on their phones. I've never said my car can't go faster ... hope no one thought that's what I meant ... I'm well aware that others can drive my car faster than I can ( Casino did at the 24hr and had never even sat in my car before that ... then he rode with me and said " I really don't know where you're loosing time") sooooooo ....... but if I'm not in the car with them, the fact that they went faster is inconsequential ... if I can't see where or how then it really doesn't mean much ... I'm still out there going as hard and as fast as I possibly can .. so my statement ( such as it is ) is still correct ... I'm driving as hard and as fast as I know how ... and like I've said in past posts ... as long as things get broken down to individual classes for the yr I couldn't care less how we do it at each event .. and for what it's worth I don't make those excuses .... I realize it's 99.9% me |
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Post by jprice130 on Jan 7, 2013 14:25:18 GMT -5
Walter. I think he's just taunting you. He can't handle a veteran like you. Maybe you can tutor him. I know you like stirring the pot Travis, but in all seriousness, I would more than welcome any tutoring from Walter. I'm sure there's a thing or two he could teach me and I would gladly listen. |
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Post by wrcfan on Jan 7, 2013 14:27:31 GMT -5
I like the idea of combining single car/lightly subscribed classes into a larger paxed class. I want to run some big tires on the focus in FSP this year, but I don't like the class of one concept. That's why I've ran tire class the past year, as it gave me some fun competition.
I do want to make one last push at developing the focus on rcomps this year to see if it has some overall potential, and I'll have a lot more fun doing that by not bringing up the bottom of the pro class.
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Post by turtle8 on Jan 7, 2013 15:05:45 GMT -5
I guess I don't understand how superclasses will increase competition apart from having large numbers of cars per class.
For instance, how hard must an STC driver push himself to beat the PAX and get to the first place STR driver and finish on the podium? It has been a while since I've looked at the results, but can anyone say how often an STR has been near the top compared to how any times the slower ST cars have finished high?
Superclasses may indeed foster harder driving and make drivers push harder, but if drivers are doing that anyway, how would the overall results be any different than now? How is PAX competition better than class compettion? Additionally, if the season end points are to be determined on the individual SCCA classes, what is the difference with this new proposes system other than handing out fewer trophies? In years past, I remember drivers receiving recognition for winning Fastest Time-SP, FT-STock, etc.
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Post by srduck on Jan 7, 2013 16:02:40 GMT -5
Looking back at results....
ZMax 1:
S*: HS 97 Gwen Baake 09 Mini Cooper 69.234 *0.799 55.318
SP*: ASP 25 Adam Benaway 05 Subaru STi 66.989 *0.863 57.811
ST*: STR 71 Berry Langley 06 Honda S2000 66.686 *0.835 55.682
*P: GP 1 Mark Oppedisano 71 Triumph Spitfire 67.486 *0.850 57.363
*M: SMF 24 Taylor Carr 89 Honda Civic 66.285 *0.852 56.474
Metrolina 2:
S*: ES 1 Nathan Woodward Miata 44.142 *0.828 36.549
SP*: ASP 13 Randy Cogburn 08 Saturn Sky/Redline 44.561 *0.863 38.456
ST*: STU 95 Greg Pressley 04 Subaru STI 43.430 *0.841 36.524
*P: GP 1 Mark Oppedisano 71 Triumph Spitfire 42.864 *0.850 36.434
*M: SM 5 Tom Owens 08 Subaru STi 41.411 *0.866 35.861
ZMax 3:
S*: ES 40 Kevin Chapman 94 Mazda Miata 60.008 *0.828 49.686
SP*: FSP 195 Brittany Edwards Mazda Protoge 94 57.685 *0.838 48.340
ST*: STS 2 AJ Snyder 96 Mazda Miata 60.079 *0.827 49.685
*P: EP 96 John Reamer 86 Honda Civic Si 57.268 *0.870 49.823
*M: SMF 41 Daniel Wendel 86 Honda CRX 1.6 Si 57.304 *0.852 48.823
BlackLake 4:
S*: SS 96 Scott Hurley z06 51.218 *0.858 43.945
SP*: ASP 25 Adam Benaway 2005 Subaru wrx 50.888 *0.863 43.916
ST*: STU 37 John Wolf 2011 Subaru STI 51.890 *0.841 43.639
*P: EP 36 Ryan Sharp 1986 Honda CRX 52.034 *0.870 45.269
*M: KM 28 Gabe West 2002 CRG Kart Road Rebel 46.220 *0.952 44.001
ZMax 5:
S*: SS 74 Robert Houser 11 Chevrolet Corvette GS 54.322 *0.858 46.608
SP*: ESP 3 Kris Frost 12 Ford Mustang 58.437 *0.848 49.554
ST*: STX 31 Ryan Spillman 08 Mazda Mazdaspeed 3 58.417 *0.822 48.018
*P: EP 96 John Reamer 86 Honda Civic Si 55.077 *0.870 47.917
*M: DM 11 Chuck Meyers 90 Caterham Seven 51.299 *0.915 46.938
ZMax 6:
S*: ES 1 Nathan woodward Mazda Miata 58.912 *0.828 48.779
SP*: ASP 25 Adam Benaway 05 Subaru sti 56.734 *0.863 48.961
ST*: STS 2 AJ Snyder 90 Mazda Miata 59.295 *0.827 49.037
*P: GP 1 Mark Oppedisano 71 Triumph Spitfire 58.135 *0.850 49.414
*M: DM 11 Chuck Meyers 90 Caterham Seven 52.880 *0.915 48.385
Dixie 7:
S*: DS 13 Lewis Wheeler 08 Audi TT Quattro 47.624 *0.821 39.099
SP*: ASP 195 Adam Benaway 05 Something With 4 Wheels 43.914 *0.863 37.897
ST*: STR 5 Steven Duckworth Duckles Miata YO! 46.069 *0.835 38.467
*P: GP 1 Mark Oppedisano 71 Triumph Spitfire 46.780 *0.850 39.763
*M: SMF 41 Daniel Wendel 86 Honda CRX 1.6 Si 45.231 *0.852 38.536
Metrolina 8:
S*: SS 33 Jason Rooks 12 Chevrolet Corvette 36.002 *0.858 30.889
SP*: ESP 25 Steve Couture 05 Ford Mustang GT 39.649 *0.848 33.622
ST*: STU 37 John Wolf 11 Subaru STI 36.191 *0.841 30.436
*P: GP 1 Mark Oppedisano 71 Triumph Spitfire 38.051 *0.850 32.343
*M: SM 23 Joe DiApice 06 Mitsubishi Evolution 9 35.621 *0.866 30.847
ZMax 9:
S*: DS 22 John Brotbeck 05 Mini Cooper S 66.262 *0.821 54.401
SP*: ASP 113 Adam Benaway 05 Turbo Sky 62.394 *0.863 53.846
ST*: STX 0 William Gravely 03 BMW 330i 66.314 *0.822 54.510
*P: GP 1 Mark Oppedisano 71 Triumph Spitfire 64.529 *0.850 54.849
*M: SM 23 Joe DiApice 06 Mitsubishi Evolution 9 63.310 *0.866 54.826
And to give you some idea, an STC car driven by a novice would have won the ST* superclass at the last ZMax event: NSTC 9 Tad Dennis 00 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS 66.040 *0.820 54.152
There's a decent amount of variety in there. The PAX evens out the superclasses whereas the old "Fastest time SP" is based solely on raw times.
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Post by ball80 on Jan 7, 2013 16:11:38 GMT -5
I just don't want pax to determine who wins. I had to deal with that all last year. I want straight up raw Stx time
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Post by jprice130 on Jan 7, 2013 17:04:28 GMT -5
I just don't want pax to determine who wins. I had to deal with that all last year. I want straight up raw Stx time C'mon Travis! You won Novice! How bad was "dealing" with PAX really? Plus, I think the more popular proposal is to continue maintaining points for the base classes even if we do the combined classes. If that scenario plays out, you'll still get to battle with your STX competitors straight up and you can just ignore the combined results. |
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Post by yellow CR on Jan 7, 2013 17:22:47 GMT -5
I guess I don't understand how superclasses will increase competition apart from having large numbers of cars per class. For instance, how hard must an STC driver push himself to beat the PAX and get to the first place STR driver and finish on the podium? It has been a while since I've looked at the results, but can anyone say how often an STR has been near the top compared to how any times the slower ST cars have finished high? Superclasses may indeed foster harder driving and make drivers push harder, but if drivers are doing that anyway, how would the overall results be any different than now? How is PAX competition better than class competition? Additionally, if the season end points are to be determined on the individual SCCA classes, what is the difference with this new proposes system other than handing out fewer trophies? In years past, I remember drivers receiving recognition for winning Fastest Time-SP, FT-STock, etc. Having more people to loose to or beat is what makes good competition. If you don't have any chance to loose, because you are in a single car class or the other competitors have weak under prepared cars, their is no competition. We already know before hand who will win. For example - STS - with AJ going to Pro, Walter is going to be the 2013 STS Champ if he makes the required events. And in regards to your question about STC vs STR, on a 60 second course STR has to beat STC by more than a second in RAW time. I run with Triad SCC in STR, Mike Kuhn runs STX with Chris Cline and Dave O'Malley runs STC, we are all very competitive drivers in good cars and we all beat each other on any given day. I see nothing to lead anyone to a conclusion of it not being fair. And if you are someone who is running in a weak field you are selling yourself short and will not get to be as good of a driver as you can. Without the carrot in front of the horse egging you to try new things, you won't improve. I didn't improve much when I ran in STR open for a little while against my brother (CCR) and Matt Feeney (Triad) and PAXed in the top 1/3 much of the time. Since going to the Pro Class 2 years ago, I have found the seconds I though I couldn't get and now I can compete with NC's best. My car is the same, I have not done anything new to it in 3 years now, so I got better, because I had to. |
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Post by turtle8 on Jan 7, 2013 19:04:29 GMT -5
What you say is valid, but what is the point in having combined classes if season points are still based on individual SCCA classes? Example: Let's says E-Mod is a one-car class. The driver runs in the Mod Superclass all season and finishes mid-pack at best. Then, at the banquet he picks up a first place E-Mod trophy.
Unless you eliminate the individual classes altogether, there is no special incentive to win a superclass if they have no bearing on the outcome of final season points. I already derive special satisfaction when my STC car occasional goes faster than an STS. The one thing that is different is that scores such of this are not recognized.
I say if you want to use this newly proposed category structure, do away with the individual classes. Using a combined points system is meaningless if the one and only E-Mod driver is going to automatically get a season championship anyway. In that case leave well enough alone, don't muddy up the system using two points systems.
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Post by yellow CR on Jan 7, 2013 19:27:15 GMT -5
My thought was to eliminate the open classes for individual events and season championships, with the 9 Super Classes. Thus getting rid of all single car classes.
The second option is keep it as is, just add an Intermediate PAX Class, for those that want to compete with more people. This is a combo class like novice or pro for any car. But this will make more single car classes when some stay and some go to the Intermediate Class.
This is not about being cheap and giving out less trophies. This is about getting people to compete harder for those trophies, and make them more meaningful, where you can be happy getting 5th place. And with better competition, the overall skill level of CCR will improve. I am sure most people do want to get better.
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Post by integra55 on Jan 7, 2013 20:31:15 GMT -5
. For example - STS - with AJ going to Pro, Walter is going to be the 2013 STS Champ if he makes the required events. I believe you're sell JB and Alex a bit short here ... I'll do my best to win ... but if the 2 of them show up all the time it'll be a dog fight |
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Post by integra55 on Jan 7, 2013 20:36:23 GMT -5
My thought was to eliminate the open classes for individual events and season championships, with the 9 Super Classes. Thus getting rid of all single car classes. The second option is keep it as is, just add an Intermediate PAX Class, for those that want to compete with more people. This is a combo class like novice or pro for any car. But this will make more single car classes when some stay and some go to the Intermediate Class. This is not about being cheap and giving out less trophies. This is about getting people to compete harder for those trophies, and make them more meaningful, where you can be happy getting 5th place. And with better competition, the overall skill level of CCR will improve. I am sure most people do want to get better. |
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Post by W. Dean Furr on Jan 7, 2013 20:54:16 GMT -5
Sounds like a good discussion subject for the meeting/banquet Saturday, since many of the year-end champs will be there.
I like the hybrid idea, if it's practical: Superclasses for each event, and year-end per SCCA class. Of the two "official" options (Superclasses or Intermediate Pax), it's a tough call. I think I might lean toward the second one, just because it keeps the class championships in play. But I have no interest in another Pax class that lumps stock and prep and everything else. We already have Pro.
It doesn't seem like the number of trophies per event would decrease, except in 1-car classes. The number of first-place trophies would change. But it is 1 trophy for a 2-car class, 2 for 4, 3 for 7, 4 for 10, and so forth. So the total number of trophies should be pretty close to the same whether we have nine classes or ninety.
(I just happened to think: Did you say what happens with the L-classes?)
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Post by alschoon on Jan 7, 2013 21:55:51 GMT -5
...just add an Intermediate PAX Class... This is an invitation for trophy hunters. Good idea on paper, but what differentiates Intermediate from Pro? Like many long-timers, I don't care about local trophies, but some do and will jump classes just to win $5 wood. |
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Post by dasautochris on Jan 7, 2013 22:24:08 GMT -5
Man, this is definitely a sticky situation. I don't envy the ones that have to make the final decision.
I think it's a great idea to get rid of the 1 and 2 car classes. That's the main reason why I'm moving to stx this year. At the most GS has three cars and that's on a good day. Autocross is definitely more fun when you're battling multiple people.
I'm not sure about the intermediate class. Sounds good but like Mike said, it's going to create more single car classes.
I think we should go with the superclasses and leave the season points alone. Yeah, the superclasses will be pointless for the championship but at least it will make the events a little more interesting.
Doesn't really make a deference to me either way. I'm just happy I've got some decent tires this year.
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Post by drum3 on Jan 8, 2013 6:16:51 GMT -5
My idea on the Amateur/Intermediate class was also for a place to bump single car classes for that event eliminating single car classes at events .
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Post by turtle8 on Jan 8, 2013 10:22:10 GMT -5
Why is there an aversion to employing the SCCA bumping order?
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Post by srduck on Jan 8, 2013 10:36:18 GMT -5
PAX makes cross-class comparisons more fair than raw times. For example, we usually have one STF car, and we usually don't have any STC cars, so STF goes straight to STX bump class. There's no chance of an STF car running raw times with STX regardless of driver. Same with HS since we have so few GS cars.... a bump puts them up with DS. That means the non-turbo MINI and Mazda3 are now in the same class as the turbo MINI and Mazda3. Let them compete with PAX and it's a much more fair fight.
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Post by dasautochris on Jan 8, 2013 10:54:29 GMT -5
What if we used the bumping order, but instead of using raw times for classes that have been bumped, we make those classes PAX classes. For instance: HS gets bumped to DS therefore DS becomes a PAX class for that event. Do this only for the events that need to be bumped, and leave the championship point the way they are.
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Post by srduck on Jan 8, 2013 11:17:58 GMT -5
What if we used the bumping order, but instead of using raw times for classes that have been bumped, we make those classes PAX classes. For instance: HS gets bumped to DS therefore DS becomes a PAX class for that event. Do this only for the events that need to be bumped, and leave the championship point the way they are. Because there's not enough Advil in the world to deal with setting that up on an event by event basis  |
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Post by dasautochris on Jan 8, 2013 11:30:13 GMT -5
Oh, now you're just being lazy. ;D
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Post by dasautochris on Jan 8, 2013 11:30:37 GMT -5
I'll bring extra babies to punch.
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Post by srduck on Jan 8, 2013 11:34:36 GMT -5
I'll retract my previous statement. It looks like AXWare up until 12.60 (the copy I have to experiment with is only 12.50) does bump classes as PAX like we want. After 12.60 the option exists to use raw, but it still does it as PAX by default. So we COULD do bump classes, but even that's going to take another 10 minutes or so to figure out and set up in the mornings
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Post by chewbaccadefense on Jan 8, 2013 11:41:00 GMT -5
PAX makes cross-class comparisons more fair than raw times. For example, we usually have one STF car, and we usually don't have any STC cars, so STF goes straight to STX bump class. There's no chance of an STF car running raw times with STX regardless of driver. Same with HS since we have so few GS cars.... a bump puts them up with DS. That means the non-turbo MINI and Mazda3 are now in the same class as the turbo MINI and Mazda3. Let them compete with PAX and it's a much more fair fight. There will be a second STF car (at least) this year as I am prepping to run there, and it sounds like shortylke89 isn't going anywhere. It also looks like there were events where there were other STF cars. I know that having to bump up to STX would not make running all that fun. Why would I want to get destroyed by cars I can never hope to out-run? However, I will run regardless. |
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Post by Frodo on Jan 8, 2013 12:04:14 GMT -5
PAX makes cross-class comparisons more fair than raw times. For example, we usually have one STF car, and we usually don't have any STC cars, so STF goes straight to STX bump class. There's no chance of an STF car running raw times with STX regardless of driver. Same with HS since we have so few GS cars.... a bump puts them up with DS. That means the non-turbo MINI and Mazda3 are now in the same class as the turbo MINI and Mazda3. Let them compete with PAX and it's a much more fair fight. And this is why I'd like to see this PAX class system go into place for next season to try it out. At the Metrolina events it personally was really helpful being grouped together with AJ, Casino, Licursi and Duck in a giant ST class. One I had actual competition to go against and it was competition that could kick I disagree without even trying. So if I wanted to to place high and win, then I had to do it. And seeing results where I place only a second or two behind in raw than a STR Miata or S2000 and less than a second in PAX behind the same cars was a real confidence boost. The Metrolina classing really helped me to improve a lot this past season. There will be a second STF car (at least) this year as I am prepping to run there, and it sounds like shortylke89 isn't going anywhere. It also looks like there were events where there were other STF cars. I know that having to bump up to STX would not make running all that fun. Why would I want to get destroyed by cars I can never hope to out-run? However, I will run regardless. There are other STF cars, but they aren't native to CCR. Feeney is from Triad and Hill is from Clemson. And they generally only show up to our bigger events. And the Bennet's only ran STF to get more sit time using their Vibe. Last season I was the only consistently attending STF driver. And I don't know about anyone else, but winning by default isn't all that exciting. Yeah I won, but the closest driver in points to me was down nearly 30 points only because they didn't attend that many events. Not because I was driving better than them. Is there any chance for the first couple of events we could run both classing systems for points to give people an idea of what the one has over the other? |
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Post by robbiesolesbee on Jan 8, 2013 12:33:45 GMT -5
I started running this region because I noticed more G-Stocks. Of course when I started I didn't realize most were in the novice class. For most events I had nothing to gauge improvement but got needed seat time and overcame my fear of larger courses. But mainly I had lots of fun. I'm hoping for more in my class for 2013 but I'm looking at a tire class if not. In SCR I have one car I can always count on being there. I haven't caugth him yet but I'm getting closer. But it gives me a goal to reach for. The guy in novice that has the '05 Mustang was a good bench mark and running together, we tried to go out one behind the other, and see how close our times were to each other. I did take one guy with a Mustang like mine on a run and I'm hoping he will join us next year.
So out of 37 open classes:
17 classes had 0 qualify for the season championship
9 classes had only 1 qualify
8 classes had 2 qualify
Only 3 classes had 3 or more people qualify.
I want to do this because I want to see each event trophy and season ending trophy mean something. Because as it is now, all trophies that are won in open classes have no worth, and were not really earned, with the exception of the 3 classes out of 37 that had driver participation. I started in tire class, and loved the competition, having 10+ drivers to run against all the time is great. Now being in PRO and competing against 20-50 drivers is really awesome. We had 48 drivers in Pro at Black Lake, yeah that's 48 drivers, and when I came in 7th, I was damn proud if my showing. Because I would rather come in 7th out of 48, than 1st out of 3.
And the PAX system is very accurate, to within a tenth in my opinion. [/quote]
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